NRA Uncovers DOJ Gun Memo, AP Not Pleased

[LR1955]

I hope I am just paranoid and history will prove you right. Four out of five supreme court justices stated the second amendment did not give an individual the right to own guns. It is in the Bill of rights for god sakes. When I read my son's grade school history book it stated under the second amendment "the right to have a military". Governments don't have rights they have powers. I never said the military would occupy the entire USA, I gave examples how repressive governments come to power through indoctrination and propaganda. Do you really believe there are no people in this country who are not trying to gain power and destroy our constitution? Really? Who's being delusional? The national guard already dis armed people after Hurricane Catrina. Do you think they would not have fired back if gun owners had resisted?

Montana:

I said you were not delusional. Paranoid is a better term and I am glad you didn't really take that too seriously. No, you aren't paranoid either in my book. Just focusing on something that in all likelyhood won't happen due to thousands of different social and environmental issues that differentiate the USA in 2013 from Germany in the 1930's.

There are Americans who want a Nazi Germany style socialism in the USA. That doesn't mean they will ever get their way.

Sure, repressive governments have used propaganda to gain and hold power. Only one problem with that today. Its called the internet and mass communications. And if you don't think such things are powerful, you haven't been watching the doings in Egypt and Syria where those oppressive governments have not been able to control free mass media.

Question for you. Do you think the Montana National Guard will search your house for guns and if you resist, do you think the Montana National Guard will shoot you?

What is more likely -- the Montana Guard refusing orders to oppress their families in their state or are they eager and willing to shoot to kill anyone resisting them if they decide to cordon and search city blocks to confiscate your guns?

LR-1955

[montana]

LR1955, I never take any flattering on the internet seriously. The internet can be very powerful but like Egypt all they accomplished was to trade one repressive dictator for another. I don't think the question to ask is, would the Montana national guard repress me or any one else , but the question to ask should be, will the mind set of the national guard and the majority of the population be changed to the point that they don't think they are being repressive. You don't think Americans will ever get their way in instilling a Nazi type socialism , I think it has already started but it is more of a Stalinist type than a Hitler type.. We have hate crimes on the book that punishes people for what they are thinking, not for the act of the crime itself " thought police". Try to engage a leftist teacher in any public school system and watch your grade slide down instantly with zero recourse. Nobody owns any property with property taxes, searches at airports and traffic stops that would have made the Gestapo envious. Try to get government moral support for an organization that at one time had full support but now counters the new ideology mindset like The Boy Scouts of America, and see how far you will get. In just my life time I have seen freedoms that I took for granted completely disappear. It is the incremental loss of freedoms as LRRP52 has been talking about, the frog boiling in the pot. The second amendment is just one example of loss freedoms that has occurred in this country that very few even recognize as a loss freedom. Our country today is not what the founding fathers wanted . I guess it depends on what a persons definition of freedom is. Many people consider themselves as free in England but I would consider it a repressive socialist state. The old adage, " cadged animals never want to leave their cadges applies". I am a constitutionalists who believes the constitution means what it say's. A person doesn't need 40 years of law practice or teaching experience to understand what it means. It is not a living document to be changed by case law or changed definitions of those in power. It is hard to change to protect the minority as the majority, unlike a democracy that is nothing more than mob rule that can cast aside the minority at a blink of an eye. Most people who grow up under repressive country's don't even know they are repressed until they get a glimpse at a free nation. Live and let live is the nation I want to live in. If you are not harming any one else you should be able to live your life as you see fit. Your income is yours, not the governments to steal as they see fit. My property is mine not the governments to charge rent as it would like. I am also responsible for myself without the governments power to steal from some one else to provide me with what the government thinks I need. Supporters of repressive governments will always have reasons for stealing and passing repressive laws for the greater good but it is nothing more than enforcing power and control over another. I guess the question to you LR1955 is how do you describe freedom?

[LR1955]

LR1955, I never take any flattering on the internet seriously. The internet can be very powerful but like Egypt all they accomplished was to trade one repressive dictator for another. I don't think the question to ask is, would the Montana national guard repress me or any one else , but the question to ask should be, will the mind set of the national guard and the majority of the population be changed to the point that they don't think they are being repressive. You don't think Americans will ever get their way in instilling a Nazi type socialism , I think it has already started but it is more of a Stalinist type than a Hitler type.. We have hate crimes on the book that punishes people for what they are thinking, not for the act of the crime itself " thought police". Try to engage a leftist teacher in any public school system and watch your grade slide down instantly with zero recourse. Nobody owns any property with property taxes, searches at airports and traffic stops that would have made the Gestapo envious. Try to get government moral support for an organization that at one time had full support but now counters the new ideology mindset like The Boy Scouts of America, and see how far you will get. In just my life time I have seen freedoms that I took for granted completely disappear. It is the incremental loss of freedoms as LRRP52 has been talking about, the frog boiling in the pot. The second amendment is just one example of loss freedoms that has occurred in this country that very few even recognize as a loss freedom. Our country today is not what the founding fathers wanted . I guess it depends on what a persons definition of freedom is. Many people consider themselves as free in England but I would consider it a repressive socialist state. The old adage, " cadged animals never want to leave their cadges applies". I am a constitutionalists who believes the constitution means what it say's. A person doesn't need 40 years of law practice or teaching experience to understand what it means. It is not a living document to be changed by case law or changed definitions of those in power. It is hard to change to protect the minority as the majority, unlike a democracy that is nothing more than mob rule that can cast aside the minority at a blink of an eye. Most people who grow up under repressive country's don't even know they are repressed until they get a glimpse at a free nation. Live and let live is the nation I want to live in. If you are not harming any one else you should be able to live your life as you see fit. Your income is yours, not the governments to steal as they see fit. My property is mine not the governments to charge rent as it would like. I am also responsible for myself without the governments power to steal from some one else to provide me with what the government thinks I need. Supporters of repressive governments will always have reasons for stealing and passing repressive laws for the greater good but it is nothing more than enforcing power and control over another. I guess the question to you LR1955 is how do you describe freedom?

Montana:

I look at freedom the exact way you described at the end of your message. Not sure why you would even ask unless you thought I somehow support communism.

As for Egypt. My point isn't who took over. Rather that the oppressive regime of Mubarak could not stop the masses from communicating and because they could communicate, they could plan and organize his downfall. Which they did. The same is going on in Syria and did to a lesser degree in Iran. The internet and mass communication means could well be the biggest check on an oppressive government because tens of millions of people have access to information in an instant.

And, I still don't think you are delusional or paranoid although it is a bit far to say that people are being punished for what they are thinking. Maybe you can cite a few court cases where someone was accused of a crime because of their thoughts (not verbal comments or actions).

You say you have zero recourse given your leftist teacher straw man, or the 'thought police', or communists posing as Democrats. That is why America is more prone to go socialist or communist than return to its roots of freedom. Because you and others like you think there is nothing you can do about it. I don't view it that way at all. I believe people like you can do something about it and still remain law abiding. Parents can get rid of radical leftist teachers, politicians, and bad law.

The question to the guys who are complaining here is what are they doing to defeat the leftist agenda in total, not just the leftist agenda of depriving us of firearms?

LR1955

[montana]

LRR1955 it is hard to follow what you are getting at. I never accused you of being a communist or anything else. I asked the question at the end of my comment because many people have a different opinion of what freedom is. I was not insinuating anything about you but replying to the accusation from you that I was being delusional ,no paranoid for my opinion . I was using this forum to discuss and inform others of information that I thought was relevant. You obviously didn't agree with my assessment which is why we are talking now. I gave my reasons for my thoughts, nothing more. I never said I or other people like me as you stated," there was nothing I could do about our eroding freedoms". I don't know where you came up with "acting law abiding, people like me" since I have never done nor will I ever do anything unlawful, so I wont even go there. I was never complaining, but discussing the state of our country. What I thought and as you described, "people like me are doing about it", is trying to keep abreast with any new threats to our freedom so we can "lawfully" inform low inform voters and support pro freedom organizations with our time or money. To answer of what I am doing, to defeat the opposition is, I have joined every pro gun organization that I believe to be worthy, I support the Montana Shooting Sports Association which has a bill in the ninth circuit of Appeals.http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/01/montan...march-4th/ This will effect everyone here if you care to read about it. I known Gary Marbut personally for many years and supported him in every way possible. I go to every community meeting ,Legislature meetings and city and county meetings I can go to. The history books that had changed the meaning of the second amendment when my son went to grade school was replaced after I brought it to the attention of other like minded parents. I write letters to news papers countering anti freedom agendas opinions and instruct free of charge first time shooters in firearm safety. I shoot in the BSPSC, multi gun and shoot in local long range shooting matches. I run 2 businesses , have raised a son who is now grown and watched him become a much better person than myself. I have daughter who almost as good as I am shooting her AR-15 at 13 years of age and I can confidently say is much smarter than I academically and any other way I can think of.I have a wife who could do much better than me and I feel blessed to have her. I think my style of writing maybe for the confusion . I am not as articulate as Nukes or LRRP52 and this maybe why we are not always connecting. I'm sure we are on the same page when it comes to preserving our freedom.

[bow shot]

Excellent thread gentlemen. Reading and re-reading.

[LRRPF52]

So the original post was about how the NRA discovered an internal White House-DOJ memo discussing the fact that the only way they can achieve their objectives is through confiscation.

Has anyone considered that this "leak" was intentional? Comrade Hussein is great at one thing: agitation. He's a master at it, because he buries his hatred and anger so deeply, while keeping a calm face and demeanor. What better way to stir up those crazy gun clingers than to leak such a memo.

[Deer Hunter]

I to am a Constitutionalist and its not a living Document that someone can change because it doesnt go along with that persons and or partys agenda. You ask for instances of thought police, well I cant say that I know where people have been incarcerated but ive seen multiple elementary school kids suspended or expelled for drawing a gun, having a plastic toy gun or God forbid the Terrorist kid that was interviewed by the Police for Terroristic threats after pointing his finger at his classmate and going bang. We definately have thought controllers if not thought police.

[Nukes]

Montana, your writing makes perfect sense—with wisdom and kindness to boot.

[Nukes]

I to am a Constitutionalist and its not a living Document that someone can change because it doesnt go along with that persons and or partys agenda. You ask for instances of thought police, well I cant say that I know where people have been incarcerated but ive seen multiple elementary school kids suspended or expelled for drawing a gun, having a plastic toy gun or God forbid the Terrorist kid that was interviewed by the Police for Terroristic threats after pointing his finger at his classmate and going bang. We definately have thought controllers if not thought police.

And the Philadelphia 9 for publicly preaching the Gospel to homosexuals.... kids taken from parents by Child "Protective" Services because parents are/were religious... the list is endless.

[shotgun_wedding]

So the original post was about how the NRA discovered an internal White House-DOJ memo discussing the fact that the only way they can achieve their objectives is through confiscation.

Has anyone considered that this "leak" was intentional? Comrade Hussein is great at one thing: agitation. He's a master at it, because he buries his hatred and anger so deeply, while keeping a calm face and demeanor. What better way to stir up those crazy gun clingers than to leak such a memo.

I think almost anything is possible here. I agree with what you have said earlier - namely that we must not let our anger cloud our thinking and judgement. Like shooting, clear thoughts = straight shots.

[shotgun_wedding]

... ive seen multiple elementary school kids suspended or expelled for drawing a gun, having a plastic toy gun or God forbid the Terrorist kid that was interviewed by the Police for Terroristic threats after pointing his finger at his classmate and going bang. ...

That's not why we homeschooled, but because we did, my sons can draw all kinds of things, including swords and guns. One of them spends quite a bit of time doing 3D modelling of guns and other weapons on the computer. (Oh, and it's not too terrible a learning environment here, either)

[Deer Hunter]

Im an artist (hobby not career) and I had a fascination with Conan the Barbarian as a teenager so when I sat in class my mind would wonder and I would doodle on my notebook all kinds of swords and sorcery and its was life like, gory and graphic. But not once in my life have I ever hurt anyone all the way up to my current age of 48, not one.
Now fastforward to the year 2013 and im in my class and my teacher sees me drawing something like that and id end up in a psych ward or jail.

[Nukes]

As usual, Charlie McGrath nailed it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...QqGp6iR2gA

He typically does a good job of mining both bankster-owner media and alternative media for insight into current events:
http://www.wideawakenews.com

[LR1955]

As usual, Charlie McGrath nailed it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...QqGp6iR2gA

He typically does a good job of mining both bankster-owner media and alternative media for insight into current events:
http://www.wideawakenews.com

Nukes:

Sure you got the right video? The nut case was busy defending PFC Manning -- the MI guy who admitted to giving secret and above information to Wikileaks. Nothing on the DOJ stuff.

And I do believe the DOJ is conspiring with the White House an now the CDC to ban all firearms, not just AR's. Not new with the CDC. Sometime in the 70's I believe they came out with a 'study' that supported the (then new) Barbera Boxer and her efforts to ban all firearms.

LR1955

[Nukes]

Lieutenant Colonel Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg
Brigadier-General Hans Oster
General Ludwig Beck
Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben
Colonel Henning von Tresckow
General Friedrich Olbricht
Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

[LR1955]

Lieutenant Colonel Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg
Brigadier-General Hans Oster
General Ludwig Beck
Field Marshal Erwin von Witzleben
Colonel Henning von Tresckow
General Friedrich Olbricht
Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

Nukes:

If you infer I am a Nazi again, compare me to Hitler again, or in any manner insult those of us who served in the military again, I will request to Hanka and Waites that you be banned from this forum.

LR1955

[montana]

Nukes:

If you infer I am a Nazi again, compare me to Hitler again, or in any manner insult those of us who served in the military again, I will request to Hanka and Waites that you be banned from this forum.

LR1955

LR1955, I don't wish to speak the mind of Nukes, but I think we all have been miss understanding the message between all of us. Me included sometimes. I never took Nukes message to imply you or anyone else were nazi's. The German officers Nukes listed were German patriot's who disagreed with Hitlers war policy's when they realized his policy's were going to destroy Germany. Hans ulrich Rudel was one of the best if not the best military pilot in the history of the world who lived by honor and courage yet he fought on the wrong side of the war. His story is worth reading and was very inspiring to me. I hope know one would call me a Nazi because of it. Criticizing a war or policy does not mean any disrespect to those that are serving and nothing can get my blood boiling more than when low life's do just that for political reasons. Does Vietnam ring a bell. I am totally against the way that war was handled but attacking the men who served in it is inexcusable. If a man goes to war and kills people to fight against a certain policy that is being used in a foreign country ,yet looks blindly at his own country when that very same policy is being used in his country should that soldier never resist or even talk about it? I believe criticism of any policy is what this country is about and then using dialog to debate not threats , name calling or any other low life means to prove ones belief. I am not insinuating here that anyone is doing this but hopefully we can agree or disagree respectfully on any side that is chosen.

[LR1955]

LR1955, I don't wish to speak the mind of Nukes, but I think we all have been miss understanding the message between all of us. Me included sometimes. I never took Nukes message to imply you or anyone else were nazi's. The German officers Nukes listed were German patriot's who disagreed with Hitlers war policy's when they realized his policy's were going to destroy Germany. Hans ulrich Rudel was one of the best if not the best military pilot in the history of the world who lived by honor and courage yet he fought on the wrong side of the war. His story is worth reading and was very inspiring to me. I hope know one would call me a Nazi because of it. Criticizing a war or policy does not mean any disrespect to those that are serving and nothing can get my blood boiling more than when low life's do just that for political reasons. Does Vietnam ring a bell. I am totally against the way that war was handled but attacking the men who served in it is inexcusable. If a man goes to war and kills people to fight against a certain policy that is being used in a foreign country ,yet looks blindly at his own country when that very same policy is being used in his country should that soldier never resist or even talk about it? I believe criticism of any policy is what this country is about and then using dialog to debate not threats , name calling or any other low life means to prove ones belief. I am not insinuating here that anyone is doing this but hopefully we can agree or disagree respectfully on any side that is chosen.

Montana:

Nukes went too far. You need to read his response. I can take a bunch of abuse from guys I know have done their share in their lives. Edited out...

LR1955

[Nukes]

I do not expect that I am important enough in anyone's life here that they would hang on my every printed word, but for the record:

(1) I am a practicing Catholic who believes there are objective moral standards (the Ten Commandments) to which all men should be held;
(2) I am happy to interact with anyone who disagrees with me on that or any other point, preferably with evidence and logic;
(3) I want my country to practice virtue, not evil.

Further for the record, especially for those who have stated or inferred otherwise of me and others:

(4) I am not a Communist, Nazi, nut case, conspiracy theorist, anti-Semite, holocaust denier, paranoid, delusional, anarchist wannabe, or any of the pejorative inferences and outright name-calling allowed here to those who apparently believe in subjective morality, American exceptionalism, Zionist exceptionalism, "my country, right or wrong," and a double-standard of fairness and enforcement here.

My post was meant exactly as Montana understood it and I said so. I would think that everyone on this forum would understand that those German soldiers were not "nut cases" (an insult regularly allowed to some here), but virtuous soldiers for opposing Hitler's evil regime. Because I figured everyone on this forum would understand that it was virtuous to oppose Hitler's evil Nazi regime, it made an ideal analogy to support my contention that Brad Manning too is a virtuous soldier who is resisting a different evil regime.

So, is the policy here that one favored faction may freely insult, but an unfavored faction may not point out that good German soldiers violated their just-following-orders "duty" to resist an evil regime (von Stauffenberg was a serious practicing Catholic who long considered the morality of his resistance) and that Bradley Manning is in that great tradition of brave and virtuous soldiers?

Does anyone want my lunch money? If so, μολὼν λαβέ !

[LRRPF52]

I'm just wondering how the conversation has taken this direction, when we should be talking about how the WH has a DOJ memo discussing confiscation of firearms to bring about their objectives.

On the Grendel forum, we've normally been able to self-regulate ourselves as polite, coherent, personable adults. It's one of the main attractions to the site I think, unlike most other forums.