Chris Kyle dead.

[LRRPF52]

From what I've gathered so far, Routh was on one type of SSRI, then switched to another type 2 weeks ago, according to a family member. SSRI's are well known for creating a mental state where the user is no longer aware of consequences for their actions, and is more prone to homicide or suicide. You actually hear these "side-effects" touted when they run the commercials for them.

This video sums it up best, in my opinion:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLBL5QjxEPM[/video]

[Kikn]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLBL5QjxEPM[/video]

That's why I never take any prescription drugs.
.
I've had two operations and refused to even take pain killers

You'll feel great but your pee-pee might fall off...no thank you

[ES 96]

It does seem like the 2nd A is being the sacrificial scapegoat to distract from the Golden Goose of Big Pharma in regard to many of these shootings.

Quite a pile listed here along with non-firearm incidents:
http://www.ssristories.com/index.php

[tpk]

Just curious, and maybe I'm wrong...why does there seem to be more PTSD issues in post Korean War conflicts as opposed to before?

This is just from memory but it may have to do with the average number of days in contact with the enemy. In WWII it was something between 20 to 30 days on average for the war but by Vietnam it was more like 200 days/year for infantry.

[JASmith]

You are almost certainly on to a key factor.

I thought the infantry contact time (ops tempo) was somewhat less than the 2/3 of year suggested. At the same time, I know of some who where engaged in firefights very frequently and in eyeball contact for a larger fraction of the time. The trenches of WW I exposed a lot of folks to fire for long periods of time. The term "shell shock" was coined to describe what I think could be described as a very severe form of PTSD.

During Vietnam, Korea, World War II, and World War I, aircrews got the most frequent and prolonged exposure to hostile fire along with surprising casualty rates. The situation has been different in Iraq and Afghanistan simply because of the marked difference in technology (read air supremacy) for fixed wing assets. Helicopters delivering troops, etc., still must get into RPG and rifle fire.

Vietnam witnessed a massive introduction of the helicopter as a transport, assault, attack, and other mission aircraft. This meant that troops could be used a lot more efficiently. Rather than marching or riding trucks from battle to battle which could take weeks or months, troops of today are literally rushed from firefight to firefight. Again, technology and training keep the casualty rates are much lower among the combat arms than even in Vietnam, but the contact and enemy casualty rate is almost certainly higher. These make for very serious stresses.

Other factors include vastly improved diagnostic techniques and political factors. Today, PTSD (shell shock?) is not the badge of shame it once was, so more folks come forward for discussions and other treatment.

I suspect the anti-war movement also plays up the numbers and consequences of PTSD to help justify "hate the war, not the soldier" as a way to undermine our defense efforts abroad.

[Whelenon]

Sad day, sad day.

[LRRPF52]

If you've been exposed to environments where human life is snuffed out right before your eyes, and you were able to witness it, it will change you. Plenty of combat arms soldiers throughout history have had symptoms of PTSD. In WWII, most of the units deployed, re-fitted, and returned together on troop ships. After the cessation of combat actions, they re-organized, shipped out together, and were able to de-compress over a lengthy period of time on large vessels, taking up to 2 weeks sometimes to return home.

This time period allowed unit leaders and more mature servicemen the opportunity to counsel and mentor those who were really shook-up, while being able to deal with the horrors themselves. Men who shared friends that were now gone could discuss the memories of the fallen, and seal their existing bonds even deeper. Those who questioned their actions in combat, suffering from survivor's guilt or leadership decisions that led to the death of others could be reassured by their brethren that nobody faulted them for them. Many leaders took this time to write letters to the family members of their fallen soldiers, following up after official command notification letters. Upon entering the various harbors that dot the US coastlines, they returned with honor to massive parades with crowds of people, confetti, celebration, and kisses from the women. One can only imagine the sense of love of country they felt to be honored and adored by their people, waiting for them with flowers and open arms.


In Contrast:
During Vietnam, the Pentagon had the insane and misguided policy of deploying many soldiers as individuals, with their own year-long deployment quota. They would return alone, often with 24-48 hours of having been in direct contact with the enemy, now absent from their brothers, left to their own devices to deal with post-warzone symptoms that are natural for anyone to experience.

To add insult to injury, the enemy within and their useful idiots who had been thoroughly indoctrinated by their professors, communist agitators, and spineless hippies, were there waiting for them at home to condemn them, verbally assault them, and even physically attack them with feces, calling them "baby killers". They would maybe be out for breakfast at a diner, only to see guys like John Kerry on TV throwing his medals at the Capitol Building in D.C., while overhearing other customers making uninformed statements about the war, referring to the effort as a "waste of time", "waste of lives", etc.

Where were the parades that their fathers and uncles had come home to? Where were the women with flowers and kisses? Where was the time to decompress with their brothers-in-arms?

Chris Kyle dedicated his life to providing service to his brothers-in-arms, to help them deal with the demons of war that follow men home. He died as he lived, extending his time and talents to help others. He's a genuinely good dude, and shall be remembered as such. For those of you who have sacrificed so much for our precious Nation and people's around the world who faced the boot of tyranny, and didn't receive the recognition you're owed, know that there are plenty of us who are indebted to you and know somewhat of the contributions you have made.

[wheelguner]

As JASmith mentioned, in WWI it was called "shell shock", in WWII and Korea "battle fatigue" and Nam gave us "PTSD". I do not want to sound as if I am whining but my families history has been written on the battle fields of time, from the Scottish Highlands to Desert Storm we have served and I have spoken with many that served before and have formed a strong opinion regarding one thing that has changed. Our warriors from WWI and WWII came home to cheering crowds and ticker tape parades. Those wars had a defined beginning and end. Korea was the first of a different kind of war in that for all purposes it is on-going and as far as I know no massive welome home ceremonies. Viet Nam was similar in that troops were rotated in and out of country and was the first war that lacked the support of our entire country, and had no finite end. It was so unpopular that troops came home to chanting crowds screaming baby killer and throwing tomatoes and eggs. My older brother was career National Guard Cadre as a logistics and supply officer. His unit was one of the first to hit the sand box as part of the "rapid mobilization force". They came home in convoys that were greeted with crowds of families, friends and townspeople lining the highways and overpasses. Now many of our troops fly in smaller groups and deplane at commercial airline gates. I have seen the news footage and commercials that depict their welcome from the folks waiting for their own planes and I bless every individual that stops and welcomes those in uniform. The point I'm struggling to make is the veterans of WWI and WWII, by the massive welcomes they received were given a mass form of "Absolution", they were made to believe that what they accomplished was good and right. This is missing now. I have business style cards printed that I hand every man in uniform, it simply says "I appreciate your Service". This make sense to anyone else? EDIT.... LRRPF52 looks like we were typing together and you posted first. Looks like we feel the same. Semper Fi

[bwaites]

I find it interesting that so many of you are willing to blame the medication, just like anti-gun people are willing to blame the gun!

The reason he was on the medication is BECAUSE he had a serious mental illness. Blaming the medication for acting out is EXACTLY akin to blaming a gun for shooting.

How many of you have spent any time at a mental health facility where people refuse their medications? How many of you have spent any time at a prison, where 50% of the people incarcerated have some type of mental illness and were NOT taking any medication when they commintted their criminal acts? I'm at a juvenile detention facility weekly. 60-70% of these kids are victims of documented abuse and have PTSD, Depression, Anxiety, Schizophrenia, or BiPolar disease. NOT A SINGLE ONE WAS ON TREATMENT MEDICATION WHEN THEY COMMITTED THEIR FELONIES! NOT ONE!

Its a sad day when supposedly educated people refuse to acknowledge that double blind studies, the only way a medication can be tested scientifically, are valid.

These arguments against medication are EXACTLY the same arguments that anti-gunners use against guns! How can you not see the illogical progression you are following? As I have stated before, CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION!

Our mental health system sucks, but it isn't because of the medication, guys! Its because we have far too few providers for the number of people needing help! That's why a Navy Seal and his buddy were trying to help out a Marine diagnosed with mental illness, because there simply weren't enough conventional resources to help. I seriously doubt that Chris Kyle or Chad Littlefield had ANY training in dealing with an individual with severe PTSD, and yet, being the good guys they were, they tried.

But blaming the medication he was taking is akin to blaming the rifle he used.

[LRRPF52]

I have also seen the studies that show that eating salad daily, and daily exercise have the equivalent positive effects on combating depression and common mental illnesses, without the side effects. The common side effects of switching or going off the meds are in fact, homicidal and suicidal thoughts, among others. We've become a society of pill-popping and push-button solutions, rather than logical approaches that were part of every-day life before the post-industrial fantasy-land era we live in.

I also have a major problem with the theories behind the administration of psychotropic medications, since they follow the established school of thought that the brain can be manipulated with chemistry "balance", when the most recent studies with advanced Electroenecphalography indicate a completely different nature to the organ, that should have made radical shifts in the neurosciences towards electroneurophysiology, but did not.

The University of Michigan has been at the forefront of this research, using real-time 3D imaging of brain electrical function, and were able to to see a phenomenon occurring between the synapses that takes electro-chemical connector theory in a totally different direction, but that hasn't been pursued. I read about it in The Scientific American while in Europe, and have followed-up with the UoM, but can't get the article. Basically, it concluded that over 92% of what happens between the synapses is an energy that doesn't register with any of the standard instrumentation that would register on the electromagnetic spectrum, but its effects can clearly be seen in real-time.

It should have launched a new era in neuroscience, because its implications have vast considerations to be studied and processed for decades to come. The reality is that professionals within the neuroscience community haven't even heard of it, at least none of the ones I have asked. It should have been breaking news of the century for every brain surgeon, psychiatrist, psychologist, and neurological researcher.

Forgive me for not trusting the "double-blind" studies issued by Merck. After what I've seen in that industry, I would go outside to check if they told me the sky was blue.

[bwaites]

I've actually never read a Merck study. I have read MANY studies conducted by research universities, however.

Electroneurophysiology is an interesting field. I work with the last institution in Washington State that was still using ElectroShock therapy for management of Depression and Anxiety. The records of treatment are above reproach, it was effective, there were very few side effects, and patients recovery was remarkably efficient in comparisons to medication, talk therapy, etc.

And yet, insurance would no longer pay for it, the State would no longer pay for it, and people themselves refused. I was able to actually watch multiple procedures in the mid 90's, and the patients all were very happy with the results.

You are proposing that a University did a study with profound medical implications, and now is suppressing that study? What would be their reasoning? A Doctor who found a better mousetrap for treatment of mental health would OWN the industry, since treatment of mental issues is so inconsistent. He wouldn't need Pharma money, because he could write his own check. And the institution that employed him would never need big Pharma money again!

My guess; that the peer review process found some rather gaping holes in the theory. I don't know a single MD Psychiatrist who would not love a chance at helping their patients any way possible. They ALL, to a man, recognize the weaknesses in current therapy.

[bwaites]

I have also seen the studies that show that eating salad daily, and daily exercise have the equivalent positive effects on combating depression and common mental illnesses, without the side effects. The common side effects of switching or going off the meds are in fact, homicidal and suicidal thoughts, among others. We've become a society of pill-popping and push-button solutions, rather than logical approaches that were part of every-day life before the post-industrial fantasy-land era we live in.

Actually, the common result of severe depression, PTSD, and anxiety is/are suicidal/homicidal thoughts. Its why the first question we ask as medical providers is whether they feel that way! Untreated severe depression almost always leads to suicide, unless the person enters a vegetative state, which I've seen in State Institutions. I certainly don't disagree that Americans want an answer "right now" and that other approaches may help. However, I doubt that a healthy diet and exercise would have helped this Marine. The vast majority of Marines I've met (and SF guys) are exercising pretty vigorously, and that doesn't seem to protect them.

I also have a major problem with the theories behind the administration of psychotropic medications, since they follow the established school of thought that the brain can be manipulated with chemistry "balance", when the most recent studies with advanced Electroenecphalography indicate a completely different nature to the organ, that should have made radical shifts in the neurosciences towards electroneurophysiology, but did not.

The brain is easily manipulated with chemistry, as any high schooler smoking dope or drinking alcohol can attest! The practice of medicine is still a balance between art and science. We'd love to find a "cookbook" that worked in every situation, but it isn't going to happen in our lifetimes.

The University of Michigan has been at the forefront of this research, using real-time 3D imaging of brain electrical function, and were able to to see a phenomenon occurring between the synapses that takes electro-chemical connector theory in a totally different direction, but that hasn't been pursued. I read about it in The Scientific American while in Europe, and have followed-up with the UoM, but can't get the article. Basically, it concluded that over 92% of what happens between the synapses is an energy that doesn't register with any of the standard instrumentation that would register on the electromagnetic spectrum, but its effects can clearly be seen in real-time.

It should have launched a new era in neuroscience, because its implications have vast considerations to be studied and processed for decades to come. The reality is that professionals within the neuroscience community haven't even heard of it, at least none of the ones I have asked. It should have been breaking news of the century for every brain surgeon, psychiatrist, psychologist, and neurological researcher.

Forgive me for not trusting the "double-blind" studies issued by Merck. After what I've seen in that industry, I would go outside to check if they told me the sky was blue.

You don't have to trust them. But using Youtube videos to demonstrate your point is hardly confidence inspiring when it comes to what you do trust.

The truth is that we are barely scratching the surface in mental health. But for every patient with some horrible side effect, I can produce 2 from my own practice that will tell you how much better their life is because of modern medicines and their use.

The learning curve is steep. Discounting some of the steps on that curve doesn't help the people who need them.

[LRRPF52]

If recent research indicated that the theories for prescribing psychotropic medication have no scientific basis, I can think of between 35 and 55 billion reasons why the research would never see the light of day.



If anyone really thinks suppression of academic research doesn't happen, I invite you into one of my other hobbies...Meso-American History and Archeology. That field is jam-packed with exclusion of volumes of evidence that is quite frankly, criminal. These topics are probably best for another forum though.

I just want to re-iterate that Chris Kyle and other vets have continued their lives of service by offering help and positive avenues to channel many of the feelings and symptoms vets experience once they return to civilian life. I doubt they even knew the alleged perpetrator had just been recently released from a mental facility, or had his SSRI's switched, or was even on SSRI's. Being a man of trust, I think Chris just wanted to help a fellow veteran, and he died in the process.

[bwaites]

Hmmmm.....Merck might not be your best choice for antidepressants. I can't think of a single Merck antidepressant that is even in their top 20 drugs, maybe more.

Elavil (Amitryptyline) was theirs, but has been generic for more than 15 years, and most Elavil is mostly used for sleep disorders at this point.

Remeron was Schering Plough, but its also generic.

BUT....we've beat the horse enough.

I certainly agree regarding Chris and his efforts to help other veterans. GREAT guy by all accounts and one who will be missed.

[BjornF16]

I find it interesting that so many of you are willing to blame the medication, just like anti-gun people are willing to blame the gun!

The reason he was on the medication is BECAUSE he had a serious mental illness. Blaming the medication for acting out is EXACTLY akin to blaming a gun for shooting.

How many of you have spent any time at a mental health facility where people refuse their medications? How many of you have spent any time at a prison, where 50% of the people incarcerated have some type of mental illness and were NOT taking any medication when they commintted their criminal acts? I'm at a juvenile detention facility weekly. 60-70% of these kids are victims of documented abuse and have PTSD, Depression, Anxiety, Schizophrenia, or BiPolar disease. NOT A SINGLE ONE WAS ON TREATMENT MEDICATION WHEN THEY COMMITTED THEIR FELONIES! NOT ONE!

Its a sad day when supposedly educated people refuse to acknowledge that double blind studies, the only way a medication can be tested scientifically, are valid.

These arguments against medication are EXACTLY the same arguments that anti-gunners use against guns! How can you not see the illogical progression you are following? As I have stated before, CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSATION!

Our mental health system sucks, but it isn't because of the medication, guys! Its because we have far too few providers for the number of people needing help! That's why a Navy Seal and his buddy were trying to help out a Marine diagnosed with mental illness, because there simply weren't enough conventional resources to help. I seriously doubt that Chris Kyle or Chad Littlefield had ANY training in dealing with an individual with severe PTSD, and yet, being the good guys they were, they tried.

But blaming the medication he was taking is akin to blaming the rifle he used.

Bill, I just can't accept the analogy or your 100% confidence in meds.

My brother had a break down while enrolled in Rice University in the late 60's. He was in Navy ROTC. Everything seemed normal, and then a break down within days of a ROTC "party". There was a suspicion that he was a casualty of the CIAs LSD program (MKUltra). I haven't found any evidence it was conducted at Rice University or not...

I do know that on some of the meds, he was fine. On some meds, he was an absolute menace.

I'm sure you don't intend to omit, but not everyone reacts the same to all of the meds. Some people will have adverse side effects to include undesired behaviors and/or a lack of ability to process right from wrong.

I'm not suggesting that all meds are EVIL...I get that some people need to be on meds. But I firmly believe that our society is over medicated and over vaccinated.

I agree our mental health system is broke...I'll thank the ACLU for that one (patients rights). Sure, reform was needed but we ended up with no mental health institutions to speak of when we really needed to fix the abuses.

You can't ignore that the overwhelming majority of "mass murder" shootings were perpetrated teenagers or young adults who were on psychotropic meds...that has to be a huge RED FLAG.

I'm with LRRPF52...I don't fully trust the "double blind" studies. I've done Operations Research...data can be manipulated.

[LR1955]

Bill, I just can't accept the analogy or your 100% confidence in meds.

My brother had a break down while enrolled in Rice University in the late 60's. He was in Navy ROTC. Everything seemed normal, and then a break down within days of a ROTC "party". There was a suspicion that he was a casualty of the CIAs LSD program (MKUltra). I haven't found any evidence it was conducted at Rice University or not...

I do know that on some of the meds, he was fine. On some meds, he was an absolute menace.

I'm sure you don't intend to omit, but not everyone reacts the same to all of the meds. Some people will have adverse side effects to include undesired behaviors and/or a lack of ability to process right from wrong.

I'm not suggesting that all meds are EVIL...I get that some people need to be on meds. But I firmly believe that our society is over medicated and over vaccinated.

I agree our mental health system is broke...I'll thank the ACLU for that one (patients rights). Sure, reform was needed but we ended up with no mental health institutions to speak of when we really needed to fix the abuses.

You can't ignore that the overwhelming majority of "mass murder" shootings were perpetrated teenagers or young adults who were on psychotropic meds...that has to be a huge RED FLAG.

I'm with LRRPF52...I don't fully trust the "double blind" studies. I've done Operations Research...data can be manipulated.

Bjorn:

That's why there are Peer Reviews. Your Operations Research studies for example. Were they peer reviewed by a board that existed outside of your organization and whose sole purpose was to see if you were manipulating your data? I guarantee you that if you tried to manipulate samples, data, or statistics, it would be called out very quickly.

My bet with this whole nasty situation is the murderer was screwed up well before he went into the Marines. I would like to see some demographics on the guy.

LR1955

[BjornF16]

Bjorn:

That's why there are Peer Reviews. Your Operations Research studies for example. Were they peer reviewed by a board that existed outside of your organization and whose sole purpose was to see if you were manipulating your data? I guarantee you that if you tried to manipulate samples, data, or statistics, it would be called out very quickly.

My bet with this whole nasty situation is the murderer was screwed up well before he went into the Marines. I would like to see some demographics on the guy.

LR1955

I get the whole "peer review" thing....just like global warming report peer reviews. They aren't bullet proof.

My main point is some people obviously have bad reactions to some meds and/or vaccinations. Otherwise, we wouldn't see a list of possible adverse reactions.

I think the demographics will be interesting (if we ever get to see them). I'd like to see some studies done on these mass shooting perpetrators as well including medical history and drug prescription/usage.

Just to be clear, I don't believe the drugs are alone causal...there is obviously an underlying issue. But that doesn't mean they aren't causal at all.

[bwaites]

Bill, I just can't accept the analogy or your 100% confidence in meds.

I CERTAINLY am not 100% confident in psychiatric medications. I have never said I am, that would be in direct contradiction to anything I have actually said. I have said that blaming the meds is akin to blaming the gun. These people are ON the meds BECAUSE they already exhibit these tendencies. NOBODY puts healthy people on these meds for treatment! Perhaps my attitude is best explained by this statement; "Every medication I prescribe is a poison that I use in very small amounts for its beneficial side effects." When those side effects outweigh the benefit, then I would never subscribe to the use of those meds.

My brother had a break down while enrolled in Rice University in the late 60's. He was in Navy ROTC. Everything seemed normal, and then a break down within days of a ROTC "party". There was a suspicion that he was a casualty of the CIAs LSD program (MKUltra). I haven't found any evidence it was conducted at Rice University or not...

I do know that on some of the meds, he was fine. On some meds, he was an absolute menace.

Of course, and we don't always know which med will cause which side effect. That's a big piece of the art associated with the "Healing Arts".

I'm sure you don't intend to omit, but not everyone reacts the same to all of the meds. Some people will have adverse side effects to include undesired behaviors and/or a lack of ability to process right from wrong.

I'm not suggesting that all meds are EVIL...I get that some people need to be on meds. But I firmly believe that our society is over medicated and over vaccinated

Certainly, some people have untoward side effects. Unfortunately, our mental health system is not well equipped for that monitoring. Insurance won't pay for daily counseling and medication adjustment visits, and people won't even follow up when insurance WOULD pay!

I agree our mental health system is broke...I'll thank the ACLU for that one (patients rights). Sure, reform was needed but we ended up with no mental health institutions to speak of when we really needed to fix the abuses.

You can't ignore that the overwhelming majority of "mass murder" shootings were perpetrated teenagers or young adults who were on psychotropic meds...that has to be a huge RED FLAG.

Nope, and I don't, but once again, you must accept that these guys may very well have acted out regardless of the meds, because they have given some indication that they were in trouble to start with, thus the medications were started!


I'm with LRRPF52...I don't fully trust the "double blind" studies. I've done Operations Research...data can be manipulated.

What do you trust? At some point you have to say, this will most likely work, and we have to try it.

OK, I'm going to give you a case:

Lets say you have a soldier or Marine, recently discharged. Beautiful new wife, well set up 25 year old who got out 18 months ago after 2 tours in Afghanistan.

He was diagnosed with PTSD before discharge, after having multiple TBI's (Traumatic Brain Injuries for the uninitiated) secondary to multiple IED explosions in close proximity, (One IED where his vehicle was destroyed and two buddies killed, another a week later where an airstrike dropped 200 yards short of the designated grid, within 15 yards of his patrol.) He had other IED's go off in close proximity, but those two blasts were within a week of each other.

He doesn't feel like he has PTSD, but he admits he can't sleep at night consistently, has severe headaches and has horrible, indescribable dreams. His wife is a gem, and she says he has never once been threatening, nor has she ever felt he was threatening. He says he doesn't want to hurt himself of anyone he knows. He served as a Marine, followed orders and did his best to be a good Marine. Talking with him is really a pleasure.

But he is obviously disturbed by the sleep issues, headaches, and dreams. Most of his problem is probably TBI induced, and you can't yet make a PTSD diagnosis, though the military and VA system is convinced he has PTSD. They put him on meds, which didn't help with his sleep or headaches and didn't stop the dreams. He was released from care without any meds, which is fine, because it makes the job of evaluation easier, you don't have to worry about the meds complicating your evaluation.

IF the military, with literally THOUSANDS of veterans with the diagnosis can't figure out this PTSD and mental health issue, with essentially unlimited funds compared to the rest of health care, why would anyone else have a remote chance?

Meds aren't THE answer, the answer is way more complicated than a pill. But the meds aren't the issue, either. Just like guns don't kill people, meds don't either. The pathology has to be there to even consider starting someone on meds. Our theoretical soldier/Marine above doesn't have that pathology, at least from what is stated above. BUT....what if he did? Are you willing to do nothing, knowing that there may very well be a time bomb ticking?

[BjornF16]

What do you trust? At some point you have to say, this will most likely work, and we have to try it.

OK, I'm going to give you a case:

Lets say you have a soldier or Marine, recently discharged. Beautiful new wife, well set up 25 year old who got out 18 months ago after 2 tours in Afghanistan.

He was diagnosed with PTSD before discharge, after having multiple TBI's (Traumatic Brain Injuries for the uninitiated) secondary to multiple IED explosions in close proximity, (One IED where his vehicle was destroyed and two buddies killed, another a week later where an airstrike dropped 200 yards short of the designated grid, within 15 yards of his patrol.) He had other IED's go off in close proximity, but those two blasts were within a week of each other.

He doesn't feel like he has PTSD, but he admits he can't sleep at night consistently, has severe headaches and has horrible, indescribable dreams. His wife is a gem, and she says he has never once been threatening, nor has she ever felt he was threatening. He says he doesn't want to hurt himself of anyone he knows. He served as a Marine, followed orders and did his best to be a good Marine. Talking with him is really a pleasure.

But he is obviously disturbed by the sleep issues, headaches, and dreams. Most of his problem is probably TBI induced, and you can't yet make a PTSD diagnosis, though the military and VA system is convinced he has PTSD. They put him on meds, which didn't help with his sleep or headaches and didn't stop the dreams. He was released from care without any meds, which is fine, because it makes the job of evaluation easier, you don't have to worry about the meds complicating your evaluation.

IF the military, with literally THOUSANDS of veterans with the diagnosis can't figure out this PTSD and mental health issue, with essentially unlimited funds compared to the rest of health care, why would anyone else have a remote chance?

Meds aren't THE answer, the answer is way more complicated than a pill. But the meds aren't the issue, either. Just like guns don't kill people, meds don't either. The pathology has to be there to even consider starting someone on meds. Our theoretical soldier/Marine above doesn't have that pathology, at least from what is stated above. BUT....what if he did? Are you willing to do nothing, knowing that there may very well be a time bomb ticking?

Are you "yelling" with boldface?...LOL.

Mea culpa on the 100% comment...you didn't say it, but I inferred it.

I'm a hopeless case...I believe drugs can be mind altering and behavior modifying (for good and bad). Maybe some of these folks are inclined to anti-social behaviors, but I firmly believe that the meds can be pushing them over the edge. I have no proof that is so...no one has any proof it isn't so.

Every case is different. I realize the challenge is to determine which are ticking time bombs.

For a lot of personal reasons, my opinion of doctors in general isn't very high. I know there are some really good doctors out there, but I find that the doctors who REALLY care seem to be far fewer than in years past. American doctors (IMO) tend to be pill pushers instead of good old fashioned docs. Not trying to insult anyone...just my personal opinion based upon my family's personal experiences. (BTW, one of my brother's is an ENT doc...while I respect his professional opinions, I in no way subscribe to all of his professional opinions).

[JASmith]

Bill,

"Time bomb ticking" sounds rather scary.

Your example suggests that the young man is controlling whatever bothers him as well as anyone can expect. My personal experience suggests that the chances are good that the dreams and sleep problems will ease with time, but not disappear completely.

I will accept that anyone can "snap" if adequately provoked and that some folks' thresholds are lower than others.

Speaking as a partly knowledgeable lay-person, however, I would submit that the folks committing the majority of these atrocities exhibited overt symptoms that should not have been ignored.

Our mental health system failed both them and their victims.