Amazon.com has AR accessories

[fkleinbu]

I really don't know, but it was my understanding you had to have some govymnt approval to build them.. Perhaps if it's to build them for sale..

Still I don't want to make it easy for me.. I like the fact they are expensive.. Keeps me for really wanting one <grin>.. flk k

[FiremanTx]

It doesn't keep me from wanting one, it encourages me to spend a lot more money on my build!

[txgunner00]

I really don't know, but it was my understanding you had to have some govymnt approval to build them.. Perhaps if it's to build them for sale..

Still I don't want to make it easy for me.. I like the fact they are expensive.. Keeps me for really wanting one <grin>.. flk k

You just submit an ATF form 1- "Application to make and register a firearm" (ATF considers a suppressor a firearm). Same process as buying one but that's done on a form 4- "Application For Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm".

If you want to make your own you submit a form1, wait forever, get your form back with stamp attached and go to work. Pretty easy really.

If you want to make them to sell, that's a different story. You must have a certain type of FFL and it's highly regulated.

[ricsmall]

You just submit an ATF form 1- "Application to make and register a firearm" (ATF considers a suppressor a firearm). Same process as buying one but that's done on a form 4- "Application For Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm".

If you want to make your own you submit a form1, wait forever, get your form back with stamp attached and go to work. Pretty easy really.

If you want to make them to sell, that's a different story. You must have a certain type of FFL and it's highly regulated.

txgunner is absolutely correct. the only caveat is "legally" you cannot alter the supressor once its completely built. supposedly you have to submit the dimensions of your design and the serial number that you wish it to be then wait. this keeps you from using same stamp as a test bed for a good design. That being said, I got this info a year or so ago from silencertalk.com, dont remember link, so if its wrong, dont flog me too bad!

[txgunner00]

txgunner is absolutely correct. the only caveat is "legally" you cannot alter the supressor once its completely built. supposedly you have to submit the dimensions of your design and the serial number that you wish it to be then wait. this keeps you from using same stamp as a test bed for a good design. That being said, I got this info a year or so ago from silencertalk.com, dont remember link, so if its wrong, dont flog me too bad!

You do have to submit the caliber and serial number but no drawings of any kind. When you build an NFA item under a form 1 you are the manufacturer. Original manufacturers can repair or replace parts of a suppressor ONLY AFTER completely destroying the original item. There may be an exception to the tube/ serialized part (can't remember exactly- will research it) but I know you can replace baffles, end caps, etc. after destroying them. If you have even one extra part the ATF considers it a complete suppressor and it carries the full penalty of possessing an unregistered NFA item.

[keith13b]

Semantics...you can write the ATF and "de-register" your SBR (or SBS) and it will not be "regulated" any further (i.e. it ceases to exist as an SBR).

If you do - you are an idiot - as you or someone has paid $200 to register it. Why de-register - you don't get your $$ back. You can put an upper >16" on it and all is good (no paperwork required)- but the value of a registered rifle far exceeds a standard rife that has been "de-registered". Once the stamp is paid for - keep it and put any >16" upper on it and it is still worth nearly twice the price since someone can put a <16" upper on it and update the Form if transferred as a SBR! Or you can sell it as a std. rifle at normal price as long as the upper is >16". De-registering it is throwing $200 away, plain and simple.

None of my lowers are marked as "pistol". I think that was a fad with all of the confusion about swapping back and forth. If you think about it, there is no way (legally) that the ATF would know if a lower was purchased as "pistol" or "rifle" (since they are banned from keeping records of gun purchases).

Bad advice - VERY BAD ADVICE - - Be careful who you listen to. A receiver is MANUFACTURED as a rifle or a pistol - nothing is required to be marked. You cannot have a rifle receiver and put a "pistol" upper and buffer on it and think your ass is clean. The receiver is listed by the manufacturer as a pistol, not what an internet jockey thinks it is. And there are no marking required. But the serial # is defined as a rifle or pistol. Just wait until something bad happens and a prosecuting attorney does his homework. Mandatory sentences are no joke. Ignorance is no excuse.

Sorry for any confusion on your original posts...it appeared to me that you were saying that one cannot switch between pistol and rifle.

A pistol can be configured as a rifle, but not vice versa! When in doubt contact you local BATF field office. DO NOT take advice from an internet forum! Its your ass on the line. The penalties are SERIOUS! Please do your homework first!

[fkleinbu]

[snipage]
When in doubt contact you local BATF field office. DO NOT take advice from an internet forum! Its your ass on the line. The penalties are SERIOUS! Please do your homework first!

<LOL> Now who is giving the bad advise??

Contacting your local BATF office is the dumbest thing you can do.. Most of the time they do not know the law and will give you bad advise.. And to make it worse, if they tell you something wrong, you cannot say you spoke to the local office as a defense.. And from what I hear, even if the local office puts it into writing..

Though I cannot think of a reason to "de-register" a firearm, or even if it can be done or not.. But claiming anyone doing so is an idiot is rather rude and rather unnecessary.. It is so nice to know we have folks on this list who absolutely know every possible senario, and can make such broad announcements..

flk k

[BjornF16]

If you do - you are an idiot - as you or someone has paid $200 to register it. Why de-register - you don't get your $$ back. You can put an upper >16" on it and all is good (no paperwork required)- but the value of a registered rifle far exceeds a standard rife that has been "de-registered". Once the stamp is paid for - keep it and put any >16" upper on it and it is still worth nearly twice the price since someone can put a <16" upper on it and update the Form if transferred as a SBR! Or you can sell it as a std. rifle at normal price as long as the upper is >16". De-registering it is throwing $200 away, plain and simple.




Bad advice - VERY BAD ADVICE - - Be careful who you listen to. A receiver is MANUFACTURED as a rifle or a pistol - nothing is required to be marked. You cannot have a rifle receiver and put a "pistol" upper and buffer on it and think your ass is clean. The receiver is listed by the manufacturer as a pistol, not what an internet jockey thinks it is. And there are no marking required. But the serial # is defined as a rifle or pistol. Just wait until something bad happens and a prosecuting attorney does his homework. Mandatory sentences are no joke. Ignorance is no excuse.



A pistol can be configured as a rifle, but not vice versa! When in doubt contact you local BATF field office. DO NOT take advice from an internet forum! Its your ass on the line. The penalties are SERIOUS! Please do your homework first!

Really?

This came straight from the SCOTUS and the BATFE...did you even read the posts thoroughly for context?...I thought not.

Try this from the ATF ruling (sourced earlier in the thread): "Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or “any other weapon” as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re- assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA has been made."

Did you catch that?..." ...when reconfigured as a pistol,..."

Your type of internet jockeying is precisely why the ATF issued the ruling in July 2011.

Before you come on the forum shot gunning folks maybe you ought to read for comprehension (and take your own advice) and do your homework first.

An SBR is worth more? YGBSM. I would agree that a NFA item that is no longer available to be "stamped" would be worth a lot, but not an SBR that can be readily "made" and approved by the ATF for a $200 stamp. Even when transferred, you pick up a new $200 charge for the new stamp. [i. Rate of Tax. The tax on the transfer of any NFA firearm is $200.00, except that the tax is $5.00 on the transfer of a firearm classified as “any other weapon.] - http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-4.pdf. There could be many reasons for de-registering: death of stamp holder, relocation to a state which doesn't allow SBRs, etc.

If you had even bothered to read the thread thoroughly, you would have also seen that I wasn't recommending this, just saying it was possible.

[Variable]

Register/de-register: SBR, SBS, and AOW can all be de-registered so long as they are returned to non-NFA configuration prior to request submission. As was said above, "de-registration" won't actually remove any records from the NFA registry, it will simply add/annotate that the weapon was returned/placed into a permanent non-NFA status. That allows the weapon to be relegated to Title 1 "normal" status with regards to the law. A machine gun cannot be de-registered. "Once a machine gun, always a machine gun" rule. To remove them from the NFA requires destroying them and you need to maintain proof of said destruction (think torch cut serialed receiver section, etc.).

In my experience about the only premium for registered short barrel weapons is for those that are factory registered. If you form 1 it and have "Joe-Bob's P&G" etch a sketched on the lower it is typically worth less, and often difficult to dump for that matter. Compounded stamps from moving them around also makes them less attractive. The same goes for cans. Pays your money and get darn good ones, because the re-sell market for cans is pretty low.

You can buy the best or worse can on earth, but it'll cost you $200 bucks either way. You'll never get that $200 back, so make it worth your while!

[ricsmall]

You do have to submit the caliber and serial number but no drawings of any kind. When you build an NFA item under a form 1 you are the manufacturer. Original manufacturers can repair or replace parts of a suppressor ONLY AFTER completely destroying the original item. There may be an exception to the tube/ serialized part (can't remember exactly- will research it) but I know you can replace baffles, end caps, etc. after destroying them. If you have even one extra part the ATF considers it a complete suppressor and it carries the full penalty of possessing an unregistered NFA item.

that sounds about right tx. I think I remember reading that you could reuse tube but,again, this came from errornet, so... ive been on the road traveling so I havent had time to research but im gonna do some digging.

i did a little digging but couldnt find anything conclusive, maybe someone whos been there will chime in. I searched atf site but couldnt find anything there. hope i wasnt talking out of my a#$ !

[keith13b]

<LOL> Now who is giving the bad advise?? Contacting your local BATF office is the dumbest thing you can do.. Most of the time they do not know the law and will give you bad advise.. And to make it worse, if they tell you something wrong, you cannot say you spoke to the local office as a defense..

My apologizies for not being specific. Contact them in writing - I have, and have received written guidance which I can always use in the event of any confussion. They are easy to deal with and provide you with the most recent information. We pay their salaries, so lets get our $'s worth out of them!

But claiming anyone doing so is an idiot is rather rude and rather unnecessary..

I had a hint of humor when making that statement - I should have used a smiley! But you are guilty yourself - I put it in bold above. but I didn't take offence.

It is so nice to know we have folks on this list who absolutely know every possible senario, and can make such broad announcements..

Where did this come from? Quite the contrary - I never admitted to being an expert and gave a recommendation to get professional advice. Which is the safest route to take.

Really? This came straight from the SCOTUS and the BATFE...did you even read the posts thoroughly for context?...I thought not.

You are correct, sir - that is a rather new ruling.

Your type of internet jockeying is precisely why the ATF issued the ruling in July 2011. Before you come on the forum shot gunning folks maybe you ought to read for comprehension (and take your own advice) and do your homework first..

Making a comment about wasting $200 and recommending someone to get professional clarification is not what I would consider "internet jockeying". If my comments offended you - my apologizies. Sometimes lightful humor and sarcasm don't come out in written replies. Now if the OP took my advice and contacted the field office in writing, I'm sure they would have replied with the latest ruling. Is that really bad advice?

An SBR is worth more? YGBSM...

$200 more to be exact - if its sold as a regular rifle, then chances are the $200 invested couldn't be recovered in the sale price which explains why SBR rifles sell for more $$ than reg rifles even though the new buyer still has to pay the additional $200 stamp. I'm no gun dealer, but most SBR's I see being sold are considerbly more money. A basic AR can be had nowadays for in the $500-600 range. I don't think I've seen a SBR for below $1K. I could be wrong, but that is just my observation.

I don't post to stir the pot, so if it was taken that way - well it is what it is. I still stand behind my comment on contacting the people who regulate the laws. If I have a question on a building permit for my house, I would contact the County permitting office.

Can't we all just get along?

[BjornF16]

problem is the written word doesn't always come across as we intend...my apologies.

The problem I see with your rationale on the SBR is that transferring it is another $200 tax fee (plus the current 5-7 month wait). Variable is correct, a "factory" SBR may be worth more than a home-built/stamped SBR (which I was referring to). But there could be many reasons to de-register (none of which I am currently in or have ever been in). The most likely scenario I can see is if I passed away leaving my wife the SBR (as part of my gun trust) and she didn't want to deal with the "hassle" and reconfigured to rifle to sell quickly. The homebuilt SBR does cost $200 for the stamp, but you'll never re-coup it. In my case, I saved more than $200 in building/stamping my own versus buying a SBR direct from a manufacturer...so I'm not really "out" the $200.

I would add one caveat to my arguments about back and forth: After consulting with my lawyer, buying a complete rifle (already assembled) probably would be too far into the gray zone for comfort for back and forth re-configurations (none of my guns were bought as complete rifles). Building up from parts (i.e. self assembled kit) should be safe for back and forth rifle/pistol. My original responses included references/links to the BATFE ruling and was not my own "opinion". (apologies to fkleinbu as I think this is what his OP was referring to:o)

[ibgp3]

I asked about the legalities because it looked like the Amazon site offers the uninformed an opportunity to get into serious trouble.

After several pages of answers I'm coming to the conclusion that informed people with good legal advice can get tripped up.

[BjornF16]

I asked about the legalities because it looked like the Amazon site offers the uninformed an opportunity to get into serious trouble.

After several pages of answers I'm coming to the conclusion that informed people with good legal advice can get tripped up.

TxGunner gave sound advice in his reply to you earlier...buying a lower as a pistol from FFL dealer than adding the pistol length upper is fine. The trouble starts when swapping barrels/stocks.

The real problem is the ATF writes in a confusing manner instead of being straightforward, and the various branches give conflicting opinions. Even lawyers will give differing opinions.

To be safe, going back and forth should be done only if the the AR receiver was sold as a "receiver" and not as part of a rifle. But even then, you could still be harassed by LEOs who don't understand all the subtleties of the law (but who really does?)

If you have any doubts, consult directly with ATF with your specific question (in writing, as recommended previously by keith13b), keep the response, and then keep checking on changes to the ATFs policies (or contradictions).

Personally, I find the whole idea that one can be "caught" in a technicality of how a modular lower receiver was "papered" originally ludicrous. What should really count (in the ATF environment) is how the gun is presently configured.

I would like to see the entire NFA cast aside and return to full 2A rights...(one can dream).

Finally, no one should take anything I (or anyone else for that matter) comments upon with respect to NFA legalities as the gospel. We can all read the various laws, regulations, and "rulings" and come to our own interpretation...I don't know of any other case law (besides Thompson Center) that would address the back and forth conversion between pistols/rifles. I'll keep looking (as this greatly interests me).

[fkleinbu]

I like the idea fully automatic weapons are restricted.. Otherwise I would have one, and use way too much ammo <vbg>..

flk k

[ibgp3]

To stay clear, stay away from pistol lowers and uppers with barrels under 16''.

Right?

"I would like to see the entire NFA cast aside and return to full 2A rights...(one can dream)."

That won't happen in a vacuum. Many painful things would have to happen at the same time......

[BjornF16]

To stay clear, stay away from pistol lowers and uppers with barrels under 16''.

Right?

A pistol lower can have shorter than 16" barrels (from a federal, legal perspective). Some states/localities ban them or place other restrictions on barrel lengths. In Texas, you are good to go.

Depending upon caliber, there may be practical limitations on barrel length for reliability. AA sells Grendel uppers at 10.5". I've seen 5.56 with 7" barrel on up. I have a Noveske 300 BLK 10" upper currently on my pistol lower (waiting on SBR stamp now for 5 months).

Once the SBR stamp comes in, I'll purchase/build a 10.5 or 11.5" 5.56 upper for my pistol lower and probably spring for another can for that one.

AR-15s are way too cool!

[fkleinbu]

Bjorn16.. I look at them as a semi-auto T/C <grin>.. I just wish they were chambered in a wider range of cartridges.. An Alexander Arms 17 HMR is my next upper.. Hope to order it at the end of the month..

I would like to find a nice 6 to 10" barreled upper in 40 S&W (or ugh) 9mm..

flk k

[txgunner00]

I asked about the legalities because it looked like the Amazon site offers the uninformed an opportunity to get into serious trouble.

After several pages of answers I'm coming to the conclusion that informed people with good legal advice can get tripped up.

That is correct and not limited to Amazon. Most dealers have disclaimers like "NFA rules apply" but there is no obligation to verify the purchaser can legally posses the upper. I have personally educated a few people in this subject post purchase. Fortunate for them they didn't get caught.

[txgunner00]

Bjorn16.. I look at them as a semi-auto T/C <grin>.. I just wish they were chambered in a wider range of cartridges.. An Alexander Arms 17 HMR is my next upper.. Hope to order it at the end of the month..

I would like to find a nice 6 to 10" barreled upper in 40 S&W (or ugh) 9mm..

flk k

9mm SBR uppers are super fun. I don't have one myself (yet) but a buddy of mine does as well as a registered FA lower. THAT's a good time.