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Amazon.com has AR accessories - fkleinbu - 05-10-2012
Amazon.com has AR accessories including complete uppers (no Grendel or 17 HMR uppers though <snif>).. Even complete pistol uppers.. Man oh man times are a changing..
Now if I can just keep away and avoid going broke.. flk k
Amazon.com has AR accessories - txgunner00 - 05-10-2012
I've bough many things for my AR on Amazon- but the Texas comptroller just forced them to start collecting sales tax from Texas residents. Just one more expense we have to figure into our deal hunting.
Amazon.com has AR accessories - fkleinbu - 05-10-2012
Yeah but I am an Amazon prime customer.. You pay 80 bucks a year, and get free 2nd day shipping, and next day for 4 bucks more.. I do a fair amount of business with amazon.. I sure am not going to like them collecting sales tax now, that is for sure..
flk k
Amazon.com has AR accessories - ibgp3 - 05-11-2012
Seems like most of their uppers are 10" or less.
What are the legalities of pistol length uppers?
Amazon.com has AR accessories - fkleinbu - 05-11-2012
Basically any length.. I've seen them down to 5 inches or so.. And you can put a 16" or longer barrel on a pistol as well.. It's just if it has a barrel length of less than 16" (16.1" to be safe), it must never have been sold as a rifle.. If you put a butt stock on it, it better have a barrel longer than 16 inches or pay the tax and do the paper work for a SBR - which I would really love, but don't want to deal with the NFA rules and stuff..
So I keep my AR Rifles, AR Rifles, and my AR Pistol an AR Pistol.. Life is good..
flk k
Amazon.com has AR accessories - BjornF16 - 05-11-2012
fkleinbu Wrote:.. It's just if it has a barrel length of less than 16" (16.1" to be safe), it must never have been sold as a rifle.
I don't believe that is correct....
From ATF ruling:
Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or any other weapon as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re- assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no weapon made from a rifle subject to the NFA has been made."
http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2011-4.pdf
Amazon.com has AR accessories - txgunner00 - 05-11-2012
fkleinbu Wrote:Yeah but I am an Amazon prime customer.. You pay 80 bucks a year, and get free 2nd day shipping, and next day for 4 bucks more.. I do a fair amount of business with amazon.. I sure am not going to like them collecting sales tax now, that is for sure..
flk k
I was too, but I started comparing them to out of state vendors and it no longer was a good enough of a deal to justify the $80 a year. I will still buy stuff through them but not as much now.
Amazon.com has AR accessories - fkleinbu - 05-11-2012
What I said is correct and does not counter whay you listed from the ATF ruling.. I think I may not have been very clear..
If it is a rilfe (that is sold as a "rifle" on the ATF form) it is always a rifle, regardless of how short a barrel is placed upon it.. To legally put a barrel shorter than 16.1 inches (and I add the .1 inches to be on the safe side) it must be registered as a SBR.. Once registered as an SBR, it forever is an SBR regardless if a barrel 16.1" or longer is later installed..
However if the lower was sold as a "Pistol" or "Other" on the ATF form, you are pretty much free to do with it as you wish as long as you never install a rear stock and a barrel shorter than 16.1 inches, unless getting the required NFA stamp as a SBR.. If you do it then becomes a SBR and for ever more is an SBR requiring the stamp and all of the paper work..
If it was sold as a "Pistol" or "other" and you don't have a rear stock, you can install any length of barrel.. There are no legal limitations what so ever - though technical limitations do exist..
If you want to put a rear stock on it, it surely better have a 16.1" or longer barrel otherwise it's 25k fine and 10 years in the grey bar hotel..
If I have a lower which was sold to me as a "Pistol" or "other" and I install a stock on it and barrel longer than 16.1", and sell it to you through a FFL, it now is a rifle and can no longer be converted back to a pistol.. Though it could be converted to a SBR assuming the correct paperwork is completed and tax paid - and again, it now forever more is a SBR..
We go through the same thing for Thompson Contenders, and that horse has been beaten to death.. And there was even a Supreme Court ruling on it..
flk k
Amazon.com has AR accessories - fkleinbu - 05-11-2012
Hey Txgunner00.. I have a home/office out in the county.. Even the mail box is about 1/2 mile down the driveway, and the closest store is over 8 miles away.. The closest office supply store is over 30 miles away.. I buy lots and lots from amazon if for no other reason than to save gas.. I don't even think twice about ordering office supplies and have them delivered to me via 2nd day UPS.. And I have even bought a roll of that lable machine tape and had it delivered next day - and though next day is an additional 4 buck, I still save money on gas..
flk k
Amazon.com has AR accessories - txgunner00 - 05-11-2012
ibgp3 Wrote:Seems like most of their uppers are 10" or less.
What are the legalities of pistol length uppers?
In a nut shell, if you want to posses one, you must also possess a registered SBR lower or a pistol lower. Without one or the other, if you posses even just a loose AR barrel less than 16" that could be assembled into a SBR using component also in your possession, the ATF considers it constructive intent. Same penalties as if it were fully assembled and functioning.
Amazon.com has AR accessories - txgunner00 - 05-11-2012
fkleinbu Wrote:Hey Txgunner00.. I have a home/office out in the county.. Even the mail box is about 1/2 mile down the driveway, and the closest store is over 8 miles away.. The closest office supply store is over 30 miles away.. I buy lots and lots from amazon if for no other reason than to save gas.. I don't even think twice about ordering office supplies and have them delivered to me via 2nd day UPS.. And I have even bought a roll of that lable machine tape and had it delivered next day - and though next day is an additional 4 buck, I still save money on gas..
flk k
Sounds like it works well for you.
Amazon.com has AR accessories - BjornF16 - 05-11-2012
fkleinbu Wrote:If it is a rilfe (that is sold as a "rifle" on the ATF form) it is always a rifle, regardless of how short a barrel is placed upon it.. To legally put a barrel shorter than 16.1 inches (and I add the .1 inches to be on the safe side) it must be registered as a SBR.. Once registered as an SBR, it forever is an SBR regardless if a barrel 16.1" or longer is later installed..
However if the lower was sold as a "Pistol" or "Other" on the ATF form, you are pretty much free to do with it as you wish as long as you never install a rear stock and a barrel shorter than 16.1 inches, unless getting the required NFA stamp as a SBR.. If you do it then becomes a SBR and for ever more is an SBR requiring the stamp and all of the paper work..
If it was sold as a "Pistol" or "other" and you don't have a rear stock, you can install any length of barrel.. There are no legal limitations what so ever - though technical limitations do exist..
flk k
1. An SBR can be "de-registered" by simply notifying the ATF, so an SBR is not always an SBR.
2. The ATF ruling is fairly clear, a pistol and rifle can go back and forth - "Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no “weapon made from a rifle” subject to the NFA has been made."
As long as a barrel less than 16" on an AR-15 (which is a re-configurable firearm), it had better not have a stock or vertical fore grip on it unless it is registered as SBR. But you can swap between rifle/pistol on an AR-15 all day long as long as "you don't make a new firearm" by configuring it as a SBR.
3. Read the Thompson ruling again. It basically says firearms that can be configured both as a pistol and rifle can go back and forth (as long as components for both rifle and pistol are present)...in favor of the defendant. - "In United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992), the United States Supreme Court examined whether a short-barreled rifle was “made” under the NFA when a carbine-conversion kit consisting of a single-shot “Contender” pistol was designed so that its handle and barrel could be removed from its receiver, and was packaged with a 21-inch barrel, a rifle stock, and a wooden fore-end. The Court held that, where aggregated parts could convert a pistol into either a regulated short-barreled rifle, or an unregulated rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, the NFA was ambiguous and applied the “rule of lenity” (i.e., ambiguities in criminal statutes should be resolved in favor of the defendant) so that the pistol and carbine kit, when packaged together, were not considered a “short-barreled rifle” for purposes of the NFA."
4. The SCOTUS also ruled that if only parts were present that would convert a rifle into SBR, then intent is present to make a SBR. - "However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (b) convert acomplete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13."
The real issue is if you intend on making a pistol, then you better have the pistol components before you ever buy the short barrel (if you have rifles about). Having a short barrel without pistol components is intent to make an SBR.
Likewise, if you only have a pistol but also have an attachable shoulder stock nearby, then that is intent to make an SBR.
Amazon.com has AR accessories - BjornF16 - 05-11-2012
Here is the history of the Thompson-Center lawsuit:
1. ATF told TC that its packaged Contender pistol/rifle set constituted a firearm regulated by NFA (i.e. a SBR).
2. TC sued. Trial court upheld ATFs position and granted summary judgement.
3. TC appealed; Appellate court overturned the trial court's summary judgement (i.e. this was in TC's favor).
4. Government appealed to SCOTUS. SCOTUS affirmed the Appellate court decision (i.e. the packaged Contender pistol/rifle kit did not constitute a SBR).
5. SCOTUS also gave some guidance on what would constitute a SBR from available parts (the whole "intent" thing)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=504&page=505
6. In July 2011, due to the misinformation about rifle-pistol-rifle configuration changes, ATF issues a ruling "clarifying" the issue.
Amazon.com has AR accessories - ibgp3 - 05-11-2012
Wow!!....that's a lot of information.
....and a 10 year Federal sentence to make me pay attention!
"The real issue is if you intend on making a pistol, then you better have the pistol components before you ever buy the short barrel (if you have rifles about). Having a short barrel without pistol components is intent to make an SBR.
Likewise, if you only have a pistol but also have an attachable shoulder stock nearby, then that is intent to make an SBR."
In the present climate the ATF is unlikely to get a warrant to knock on your door and check your gun safe, but what you take to the range or have in your vehicle had better line up "nearby"
Amazon.com has AR accessories - fkleinbu - 05-11-2012
BjornF16 Wrote:1. An SBR can be "de-registered" by simply notifying the ATF, so an SBR is not always an SBR.
[snip]
... if you only have a pistol but also have an attachable shoulder stock nearby, then that is intent to make an SBR.
We really saying basically the same thing in that you can legally convert a lower between a pistol and rifle, again perhaps I am not clear..
Personally though, my pistol lowers are marked as "Pistol" on the lower, and they are the only ones which get the short barrels, and all other lowers never get less than a 16" barrel..
There is one exception in regards to your point 1.. I was told by an Class III dealer, once registered, always registered.. Just as if I legally converted a firearm to full auto, it then is always classified as a FA.. Is this wrong as well and you can deregister a FA??
But the real important part, I follow a pretty clean life, so I should never run afoul of Law enforcement..
Flk k
Amazon.com has AR accessories - BjornF16 - 05-11-2012
fkleinbu Wrote:There is one exception in regards to your point 1.. I was told by an Class III dealer, once registered, always registered.. Just as if I legally converted a firearm to full auto, it then is always classified as a FA.. Is this wrong as well and you can deregister a FA??
Semantics...you can write the ATF and "de-register" your SBR (or SBS) and it will not be "regulated" any further (i.e. it ceases to exist as an SBR). However, it remains in the "registry" (that is to say, there continues to be a historical record of it as an SBR).
None of my lowers are marked as "pistol". I think that was a fad with all of the confusion about swapping back and forth. If you think about it, there is no way (legally) that the ATF would know if a lower was purchased as "pistol" or "rifle" (since they are banned from keeping records of gun purchases). So what really matters is how it is configured (and what components you have or don't have "nearby").
I don't know the answer to FA question...
Sorry for any confusion on your original posts...it appeared to me that you were saying that one cannot switch between pistol and rifle.
So as to not completely hijack this thread, I also have been signed up for Amazon's "Prime" membership. At the expiration of my current membership, I will be canceling that membership in protest of the tax collection agreement with the state. From what I have read, Amazon will start collecting taxes on July 1st. (Does this apply to completely electronic purchases such as Kindle books?)
Amazon.com has AR accessories - fkleinbu - 05-11-2012
BjornF16 Wrote:[snipage] If you think about it, there is no way (legally) that the ATF would know if a lower was purchased as "pistol" or "rifle" (since they are banned from keeping records of gun purchases). So what really matters is how it is configured (and what components you have or don't have "nearby").
[snipage]
From what I have read, Amazon will start collecting taxes on July 1st. (Does this apply to completely electronic purchases such as Kindle books?)
<LOL> the govyment especially given the current administration, and its agencies have really never shown a tradition of following the sprit much less the letter of the law <LOL>..
Having a collection of T/C's (and own the domain for a internet T/C discussions forum) I am well aware of the law regarding swapping a T/C frame between being a pistol and a rifle.. And even for my T/C's just to make sure no one can say that extra pistol barrel can be installed on that rifle frame, each barrel I have, has its' own frame, but that is done more since some barrels will not work as well with some frames..
And again, the best way is to live a squeaky clean life best we can and never run afoul of them..
As far as I would guess, tax would also be collected on purely electronic sales items such as downloadable books or software..
flk k
Amazon.com has AR accessories - BjornF16 - 05-11-2012
fkleinbu Wrote:<LOL> the govyment especially given the current administration, and its agencies have really never shown a tradition of following the sprit much less the letter of the law <LOL>
Yeah, that is why I put "legally" in quotations...i'm skeptical about the ATF, particularly with this administration. I have friends who crossed over into Canada a couple of years ago...the Canadian border guards asked about their handguns...(gee, how did they know about them?...a wild guess?)
I have several AR15 rifles, but only one pistol lower. I'm considering getting another short barrel in 5.56 to go along with my 300 BLK shorty. I'm still waiting for my SBR stamp (it's only been 5 months). Not sure I'll wait for the stamp or not before buying the 5.56 short barrel upper. I'll have one rifle upper for each rifle lower and two pistol uppers for the one pistol lower in that case...
I don't own a Kindle, but do own a couple of Apple devices with a Kindle "app"...if Amazon starts collecting taxes on electronic media, then I'll look for other sources of books.
Amazon.com has AR accessories - fkleinbu - 05-11-2012
I am in a serious debate with myself about getting an SBR stamp.. I would really like to have a 11" barrelled AR.. The debate is I really don't have a "technical" reason (plenty of "emotional" reasons but they don't count <grin>), and then there is the cost..
I also would really love a can, but again, I just can't justify the cost of both the can and the required stamp, but espcially the can.. I can't believe they cost as much as they do for what it is you really get.. If it were legal, you could build one for less than 20 bucks.. flk k
Amazon.com has AR accessories - FiremanTx - 05-11-2012
From what I understand you can build your own can, but you still have to get the stamp for it and you can't start working on it until you get the approval letter back.
Check out this site for SBRs and can stuff: http://www.Silencertalk.com
Seems to have a lot of answers to question about Title II stuff.