What's Everyone Hunting.

[LRRPF52]

Well Double Naughty Spy, [COLOR="#FF0000"]You're spewing a lot of misinformation, do you work for
the Gov't?
[/COLOR]
Yes, I'll amend my statement of every time, but because nothing is an absolute
but I'll say over 99.8% of the time.

I did Not say the head is "The Same", I said it's close to the same circumference(Gov't misinformation again)
stick to the script.

I for one don't hunt with room for mistakes in mind, yes they can happen, but when I shoot a animal in the head It goes down and doesn't suffer, if you like to take the room for mistakes approach, then hey, your choice.
But I've seen to many animals live to long after heart and lung shot, to take the new approach of hitting them in or just behind the eye(AS I SAID in that post. Not straight at a pigs forehead or any place else.
As well i assumed on my part that people would get the general idea that you're trying to blow the brains out of the pig and not conduct a shot through both eyes.

If you can’t articulate a coherent and supportable argument, please refrain from ad hominem attacks.

This isn’t the place for that.

Head shots are not 100% effective for the reasons DNS stated. The problem grows as distance increases due to time of flight, as well as how rapid animal head movements are.

That tiny vital zone swinging around as hogs like to do may sometimes be a high hit probability target, but not at most ranges.

[LRRPF52]

Here’s an answer to the original question in the OP:

[Orchard6]

I’ve seen enough deer with jaws shot off or holes through their snout to know that head shots aren’t always effective, I guess I figure I owe the animal a better death than having it walk around starving for a week or two without a lower jaw before it finally succumbs to the starvation caused by a poor placed shot. The head shot may work FOR YOU but if given the opportunity I’ll take a high shoulder shot every time. It’s a target that has more “wiggle room” in that if the animal moves slightly during the bullet flight or I’m not as steady as I should be, I still have a very high percentage of hitting a vital organ and putting the animal down quickly.

[grendelnubi]

Every argument against a head shot can be applied to every other shot placement. I would not recommend head shots but if that is what you chose, it will work. I'm a meat hunter so I never take a body shot unless I don't feel comfortable with my preferred shot which is a neck shot. Never had one take a step.

I tell you what is hypothetical, being critical of people's choice of shot placement and then turn around and arbitrarily shoot at running animals. Really....

[Double Naught Spy]

Every argument against a head shot can be applied to every other shot placement. I would not recommend head shots but if that is what you chose, it will work. I'm a meat hunter so I never take a body shot unless I don't feel comfortable with my preferred shot which is a neck shot. Never had one take a step.

I tell you what is hypothetical, being critical of people's choice of shot placement and then turn around and arbitrarily shoot at running animals. Really....

Care to expand on this?

[outbreaker]

Care to expand on this?

I can explain it even if it is not my comment because I agree with it.

1. Most people are bad shots.
2. Most people are worse shots in the field.
3. Most people do not practice enough at the range.
4. Most people do not practice in the field.

I have seen more animals lost by other hunters with shots placed "In the boiler room" than with headshots. When we were doing the doe culling under high fence I saw those "everyday joe" hunters lose about 10% of the animals they shot at. One of the guys when I checked his gun was 20" off-target, I still do not know how he hit the doe. Since the deer could not leave the property we would always end up finding them.

While that was good data about deer, it echos what I saw on pigs as well. I practice hitting small targets under the feeder with suppressed .22lr in the off-season. And I have seen these "everyday joe" hunters brag about how a box of ammo lasts them 3-5 years.

The population here on this forum is not that "everyday joe" type for the most part.

With pigs, all I care about is that they are dead, that is all that matters. I have taken less than perfect shots just to get the job done.

[Double Naught Spy]

Ah! Absolutely.

[Bjorn]

One of the guys when I checked his gun was 20" off-target, I still do not know how he hit the doe.

He was correcting for his flinch, like a golfer correcting for a wicked slice. Kidding aside, that's just a shame.

[lazyengineer]

The problem with taking "head shots" is that the head, depending on the mammal, is anywhere from 30% to 75% non-vital structures.

I have seen a hog shot in the eye with a 6.5 Grendel that didn't die. So "in the eye" doesn't necessarily work "Every time" unless you have the correct trajectory and penetration to actually do significant damage to the appropriate structures.

The reason a lot of people will not or do not take "head shots" is because the head is often quite mobile on deer, hogs, coyotes, etc. as compared to the rest of the body. The intended target can literally move its head out of the way of a shot while the shot is in flight. A nice brain shot can turn into a jaw shot or nose shot with nothing more than a quick head move and that can happen in less than 1/10" of a second, about the flight time of many typical hunting distance shots, and certainly within a 1/4 second for a shot of about 200 yards. The animal may not be trying to move out of the way of the bullet. They just move unexpectedly, sometimes. Those are more of worst case scenarios for "head shots" and the best case when it comes to them being screwed up, is a clean miss.



If deer were so delicate that a bullet impact to their head "snaps their necks" they would never survive into adulthood. You can shoot deer in the head all day long without ever damaging their necks unless the bullet actually travels through the spine.

I have a tangential technical question for you DNS, that I can't think of anyone better positioned to possibly answer: Have you ever taken a headshot with a 6.5, connected and gone into the brain cavity, and then cut it open to examine? And in particular, have you ever measured the size of the hole in the skull from the entering 6.5mm bullet? There was another Texas instance with a 6.5mm bullet fired into a head, and the hole was later measured to be smaller than 6.5mm in diameter. Yet some say that the skull tissue can expand and contract under such, and so give a bullet entry hole smaller than 6.5mm diameter; so not necessarily that remarkable. I'm curious if you ever did such a shot, and happened to measure it?

[Stinky Coyote]

https://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthre...-4-Seasons

moose, black bear, whitetail, mule deer, bighorn sheep, coyotes have fallen to our Grendel's, we are 10 for 10 on big game out to 420 yards so far, hornady black ammo for the win, will try to add antelope and elk in coming seasons to get that species count up being we live in a place that allows us such variety

[Stinky Coyote]

I have a tangential technical question for you DNS, that I can't think of anyone better positioned to possibly answer: Have you ever taken a headshot with a 6.5, connected and gone into the brain cavity, and then cut it open to examine? And in particular, have you ever measured the size of the hole in the skull from the entering 6.5mm bullet? There was another Texas instance with a 6.5mm bullet fired into a head, and the hole was later measured to be smaller than 6.5mm in diameter. Yet some say that the skull tissue can expand and contract under such, and so give a bullet entry hole smaller than 6.5mm diameter; so not necessarily that remarkable. I'm curious if you ever did such a shot, and happened to measure it?

I have one head shot experience to offer, 125 yards shooting hornady black from a stock cz527 American (2552 fps launch) through the trees as I could still see my young bull moose which took first shot in boiler room, I got two more shots off after the first and fatal shot as rule is shoot till they drop, the 2nd shot took out 4-6" of middle of femur bone and final shot went in just under antler and blew that antler off with a chunk of skull plate with it, the antler just hung down beside head and pulled off with hand, the hide barely kept it on and that skull hide is thick, there was brains and goo coming out of all sorts of places, I never cut the head ups to inspect the true damage but I was more than impressed with the damage I witnessed, taking the antler and part of skull with it from a bull moose is pretty impressive, there was no exit, perfectly broadside shot, great penetration and energy dump imo, the 123 eld-m is highly underestimated imo

https://www.instagram.com/p/CWe7d1SF-Ap/..._copy_link

[imaguy3]

If deer were so delicate that a bullet impact to their head "snaps their necks" they would never survive into adulthood. You can shoot deer in the head all day long without ever damaging their necks unless the bullet actually travels through the spine.

Only b/c I have first hand experience... I can say this has happened.

My 2017 Coues, 500 yard shot, 280ai with 175gr ELDX at 2850fps. I miscalled wind and happened to get lucky that the head was chest height. Deer dropped in it's tracks DRT. When I got to it I realized it was a poorly placed shot (but lucky). I assumed that the bullet destroyed the brain. After getting my euro back I was suprised to see that the bullet pretty much destroyed the jaw and had to have broken the neck, from the impact force I can only imagine (still had 2000ft/lbs according to strelok).

[imaguy3]

That being said.. I did a great headshot on a javelina with my 40sw at 20 yards (on purpose). In the eye, out the back of the skull, recovered the 180gr Gold Dot in the opposite shoulder. Pig was on the ground kicking and needed a follow-up shot.

[DavidRHudspeth]

I killed 2 blacktails with a Grendel throughs on both. 125yds and 60yds. I tried it for elk hunting but not able to get any elk.

[outbreaker]

That being said.. I did a great headshot on a javelina with my 40sw at 20 yards (on purpose). In the eye, out the back of the skull, recovered the 180gr Gold Dot in the opposite shoulder. Pig was on the ground kicking and needed a follow-up shot.

That is not surprising. At the angle you describe, a hit in the eye would give you on a javelina there is no way you would have hit the braincase.

[imaguy3]

That is not surprising. At the angle you describe, a hit in the eye would give you on a javelina there is no way you would have hit the braincase.

The bullet entered the front left eye, exited the rear of the skull, and was recovered in the front right shoulder. It went through the brain. It was quartered towards me.

[outbreaker]

The bullet entered the front left eye, exited the rear of the skull, and was recovered in the front right shoulder. It went through the brain. It was quartered towards me.

If it actually went through the brain a follow-up shot would not have been necessary as the brainstem would have been destroyed. You may have seen kicking from involuntary muscle contractions.

[imaguy3]

If it actually went through the brain a follow-up shot would not have been necessary as the brainstem would have been destroyed. You may have seen kicking from involuntary muscle contractions.

yeah not always, you should hunt more. Even brain shots aren't always fatal. It is possible to take out parts of the brain without disturbing life functions.

https://giffords.org/about/gabbys-story/
On January 8, 2011, at a “Congress On Your Corner” constituent event in Tucson, Gabby was shot in the head by a gunman who killed six people and injured 12 others. Gabby stepped down from Congress in January 2012 to focus on her recovery. As the nation’s eyes were upon her, Gabby embarked on a path to regain her ability to speak and walk, inspiring the country with her resilience and optimistic spirit.


https://www.britannica.com/biography/Phineas-Gage

[imaguy3]

If it actually went through the brain a follow-up shot would not have been necessary as the brainstem would have been destroyed. You may have seen kicking from involuntary muscle contractions.

yeah not always. Even brain shots aren't always fatal. It is possible to take out parts of the brain without disturbing life functions.

https://giffords.org/about/gabbys-story/
On January 8, 2011, at a “Congress On Your Corner” constituent event in Tucson, Gabby was shot in the head by a gunman who killed six people and injured 12 others. Gabby stepped down from Congress in January 2012 to focus on her recovery. As the nation’s eyes were upon her, Gabby embarked on a path to regain her ability to speak and walk, inspiring the country with her resilience and optimistic spirit.


https://www.britannica.com/biography/Phineas-Gage

[Double Naught Spy]

If the bullet crossed through the brain from side to side (unlike Gifford's wound that stayed in the left hemisphere), then the animal may have had surviving life function because the brain stem got missed, but the animal was brain dead and life function was very temporary. The kicking (disinhibition of the motor neurons) is typical of significant upper CNS insult and while often assumed to be a sign of death, not not diagnostic of death. Another shot would not have been putting the animal out of its misery, but then again, nothing wrong with making doubly sure the animal is dead. I will often check for blink reflex (touching an eye with the end of my shooting sticks or the muzzle of my rifle) to assess whether or not the animal is brain dead. The blink reflex is involuntary and will happen even with unconscious animals, but not those that are dead.

Here, scale might be of consideration. A peccary's brain is about 1/8-1/10th. A 40 cal bullet going through a peccary's brain will do volumetrically more damage than a smaller 9mm bullet going through a human brain along the same path. Again, the first shot was likely just fine, but nothing wrong with a 2nd shot just to be sure the animal does not suffer. After all, you often do not know just how good the first shot was until you do some sort of assessment like the blink test, or the animal gets up and tries to run away, or until you skin it for a closer look.