So I'm a bit confused re: Grendel Accuracy Potential

[DVDVC]

a HUGE unknown when answering questions about accuracy potential revolves around the skills of the shooter.

How can we describe the potential of a system and properly caveat that the new owner may need to “grow in” with precision shooting to realize the rifle’s potential?

No doubt I will have to grow into any new rifles potential, but since my marksmanship skills are an unknown to you, to answer the question you have to assume I can shoot. I mean it's not like I'm going to hold you responsible if I spend top dollar but can't shoot for shinola because I'm an Elmer Fud. I accept full responsibility for my marksmanship or lack thereof.

[grayfox]

Dv, you mentioned earlier it’s hard to get up to the 700 for a bart, there are a couple of other options for you. Mark at pf can do a criterion for about 300 and brownells has them too. Also Lila about 500 for their model 740. Slightly below what Klem said but darn good in my opinion. Not taking anything from mark but sometimes the need can’t wait 8-10 weeks...
lilja go direct to the lilja website, they usually have some in stock. I have the 740 in 20” and love it.
DANG the autocorrect!,,,,,

[Klem]

I won't claim to consistently shoot 0.3 MOA with any gun, it just happens every once in a while. That was accomplished with my reloads of 175 gr. SMKs over Varget, Federal cases, Federal GM primers. So I will be reloading 6.5 Grendel when the time comes.

DV,

Your occasional 0.3MOA is out of a Savage bolt gun, but sounds perfectly reasonable. You won't get that in an AR15 however. Even with the best brand of barrel the AR still is to light, too flexible, too narrow and rounded in the handguard to maximise the barrel's potential. It's not a 16lb monster with 3-inches wide of flat bag-riding stock on a $2K Jeb rest, loading single rounds through the ejection port because that makes the action even stiffer. It's a cheap, mass produced minimalist semi-auto. The AR15 is a handicap, so if group size is important why handicap it further with a rack barrel?

[DVDVC]

DV,

Your occasional 0.3MOA is out of a Savage bolt gun, but sounds perfectly reasonable. You won't get that in an AR15 however. Even with the best brand of barrel the AR still is to light, too flexible, too narrow and rounded in the handguard to maximise the barrel's potential. It's not a 16lb monster with 3-inches wide of flat bag-riding stock on a $2K Jeb rest, loading single rounds through the ejection port because that makes the action even stiffer. It's a cheap, mass produced minimalist semi-auto. The AR15 is a handicap, so if group size is important why handicap it further with a rack barrel?

Good point. Just to be clear, I never expected any AR, of even the highest quality parts, to ever equal the accuracy of a bolt action target gun. The question of "How accurate can an AR be?", regardless of caliber, has been a question in my mind long before I contemplated a 6.5 Grendel build. So I don't have unrealistic expectation of extreme accuracy from this or any other build. I'm just pondering what is a reasonable expectation and what does it take to get there?

[riuma]

I've got a friend who installed an Odin barrel, etc, on his 6.5 Grendel build. Shot Black into a bug hole the first time out and continues to do so. (My Odin barreled 5.56 cal, 14.5" pistol will shoot as well as I can hold so they are worth a look...). The truth is that the Grendel is an inherently accurate cartridge. If you're not getting accuracy, it's not the cartridge at fault. Is an AR capable of good accuracy? Look at Alexander Arms's list of pet loads. All the group averages are less than an inch -many much smaller than an inch.~Riuma

[0311B]

This is exactly the question that I've been wanting to ask as well. I put together a decent upper, but I'm getting very poor accuracy so far with Hornady Black and Hornady Custom. The Black ELD-Ms average 2.75" at 100 yards, the Custom SSTs much worse, so much so that I didn't bother measuring them.

I would try different ammo, but I can't find other ammo. I built this upper in the middle of a "pandemic" and an election cycle, so.. I'm saving brass and will be developing loads as soon as I can pick up some small rifle primers and powder.

I'm blaming it on the barrel, a Sanders Armory 24" Stainless 5R 1/8. I wonder if it's a whippy barrel? Did they send me a lemon? If I have it chopped down would it stiffen up? Like Klem said, is a long heavy barrel on an AR15 upper a mismatched pair? The receiver is 7075 Aero.

I didn't bed the barrel into the receiver, but if the barrel I bought is a lemon, I'm glad that I didn't. When I get one that shoots well I'll bed that.

[Klem]

I've been getting an average of 0.75MOA for 4-rd groups out of a Lilja barrel; bench-rested on no-wind days.

10x4rd gps for 100NBT/8208 work-up = 0.71MOA
10x4rd gps for 100NBT/BENCHMARK work-up = 0.78MOA
10x4rd gps for 120NBT/H4895 work-up = 0.72MOA

I'm interested to hear how Lilja compares with the Bartleins.

[LR1955]

This is exactly the question that I've been wanting to ask as well. I put together a decent upper, but I'm getting very poor accuracy so far with Hornady Black and Hornady Custom. The Black ELD-Ms average 2.75" at 100 yards, the Custom SSTs much worse, so much so that I didn't bother measuring them.

I would try different ammo, but I can't find other ammo. I built this upper in the middle of a "pandemic" and an election cycle, so.. I'm saving brass and will be developing loads as soon as I can pick up some small rifle primers and powder.

I'm blaming it on the barrel, a Sanders Armory 24" Stainless 5R 1/8. I wonder if it's a whippy barrel? Did they send me a lemon? If I have it chopped down would it stiffen up? Like Klem said, is a long heavy barrel on an AR15 upper a mismatched pair? The receiver is 7075 Aero.

I didn't bed the barrel into the receiver, but if the barrel I bought is a lemon, I'm glad that I didn't. When I get one that shoots well I'll bed that.

0311B

Bedding a barrel won't be the miracle you think. Installing it well makes the difference. Bedding can improve but if you used a good barrel and installed it well, there is no reason why the rifle won't shoot well with any reasonably good load and bullet.

I probably wouldn't trust this Sanders barrel to shoot everything well but it will probably shoot some loads well. I doubt it will give real match grade performance but holding around a minute with the right loads ought to be reasonable.

You assembled it from parts. Should be OK but you ought to check your work again to be sure it wasn't something you did.

Then you can check your sighting system that it works and is secured properly.

Then you can check yourself by having someone who you know to be a better marksman than you to test out the rifle and some loads.

There are volumes on the Forum about guys troubleshooting poor accuracy. Very few times has it been a rifle or carbine not made well. Most often it is equally spread between poor quality ammunition, poor marksmanship, and lousy barrels. Shooters who lack experience also tend to have exaggerated expectations of performance.

Klem's averages are pretty much in line with most guys who shoot competitively and thus shoot thousands of rounds a year with an eye on raw accuracy.

LR55

[Mesa1978]

My 24" Lilja on a PF upper and bolt/bcg, is a 3/4 MOA barrel as well. Occasionally, a 1/2 MOA, but that is an exception. 5 round groups. If I want a one hole gun @100 yards, I'll use a Savage bolt gun or a TRG in 6.5 Creedmoor.

[DVDVC]

I finally finished my 6.5 Grendel upper build. I lapped the Aero Precision M4E receiver, bedded the JP 22 in. heavy barrel. Scope was a 3.5-10x Leupold I had lying around. I'll put a higher magnification scope on it eventually. Using an ADM 20 MOA base had me shooting way high at first so it took several shots to get sighted in dead on at 100yd.s After only 20 rounds shot through the barrel, I shot a 0.86 inch 5 shot group with Hornady Black factory ammo. I have Redding National Match dies on backorder, can't wait to start reloading for it!

[biodsl]

I finally finished my 6.5 Grendel upper build. I lapped the Aero Precision M4E receiver, bedded the JP 22 in. heavy barrel.

JP's don't get discussed around here much. I've never heard a bad word. Congrats.

[DVDVC]

JP's don't get discussed around here much. I've never heard a bad word. Congrats.

I wonder why that is? It certainly fills a niche between the top shelf Bartlien, Lilja, etc. and the rack grades. Perhaps Wilsons fall in the same category? I'm currently building an AR 10 6.5 Creedmoor with a Wilson barrel, I hope it performs as well as my 6.5G JP does.

[Popeye212]

Klem, thanks for the input. I realize that an AR won't shoot like a bolt gun. I mentioned it only in reply to Grayfox's question of a new gun shooting sub-MOA out of the box. Your reasoning on the cost difference of a top tier barrel makes a lot of sense, but I'd have trouble springing for a $700 Bartlien. Do you have an opinion on the Wilson Super Sniper? Would you consider it a Tier 2 barrel or somewhere in between Top Tier and Tier 2?

I have a Wilson Combat barrel (my second one in 300 Hamr) the first would not group under 2 " (more like 3). I am looking for a better barrel. My next barrel for the Grendel will be a Krieger or Bartlein from Mark at PF. I have a Ballistic Advantage that will do .75 and with the right loads .3. But the top tier barrels are much more consistent. Wilson barrels in my opinion are overrated and not "Match" grade. I am looking for something else for the Hammer.

[Glockpride]

I have a Wilson Combat barrel (my second one in 300 Hamr) the first would not group under 2 " (more like 3). I am looking for a better barrel. My next barrel for the Grendel will be a Krieger or Bartlein from Mark at PF. I have a Ballistic Advantage that will do .75 and with the right loads .3. But the top tier barrels are much more consistent. Wilson barrels in my opinion are overrated and not "Match" grade. I am looking for something else for the Hammer.

Just an FYI but Wilson barrels and Wilson Combat are two different entities.

Edited: in .300hamr you do have a Wilson Combat barrel as Bill designed that round.

[Popeye212]

Wilson Combat didn't know there were two different ones. Hopefully Wilson's are better.

[Zeneffect]

Sanders uses a Wilson Arms barrel doesn't it? Also... doesn't white oak use Wilson Arms blanks? I think maybe the barrel doesn't like that load. I had a 20" Wilson Arms that shot the 120gr federal otm at just under 1moa but hated hornady anything.

[Bill2336]

I wasn't sure I wanted to get into the Grendel originally so I went cheap. Cheap as in I got the barrel, a 64 dollar 20" heavy barrel no label, from Classic Firearms and paired it with a 79 dollar BCG. I've got a couple of loads with Barnes Match Burners that will consistently do .6MOA and it'll consistently do .9 or better with Hornady ELD match bullets, both 120s and 130s. I got lucky I know and sometimes I think about dropping at least a mid tier barrel in it but there's a perverse sort of satisfaction in shooting sub MOA groups with a bargain basement barrel.

[Popeye212]

A5, do you have an opinion on the Wilson Super Sniper 22in. barrel. Looks like a great buy at $304. I don't think I can justify a $700+ Bartlien, but who knows?

I am on my second 300 HAMR barrel I am waiting for another top tier barrel to become available. I would invest the $300 in a better barrel. First one I got wasn't even crowned.

[vmthtr]

How well do you read the wind? The mirage? Small changes can open a .25" group to .75" or more. Not using windflags, itll be hard to get groups under 1"

[Sinclair]

O311B wrote:

This is exactly the question that I've been wanting to ask as well. I put together a decent upper, but I'm getting very poor accuracy so far with Hornady Black and Hornady Custom. The Black ELD-Ms average 2.75" at 100 yards, the Custom SSTs much worse, so much so that I didn't bother measuring them.

I would try different ammo, but I can't find other ammo. I built this upper in the middle of a "pandemic" and an election cycle, so.. I'm saving brass and will be developing loads as soon as I can pick up some small rifle primers and powder.


I'm blaming it on the barrel, a Sanders Armory 24" Stainless 5R 1/8. I wonder if it's a whippy barrel? Did they send me a lemon? If I have it chopped down would it stiffen up? Like Klem said, is a long heavy barrel on an AR15 upper a mismatched pair? The receiver is 7075 Aero.

I didn't bed the barrel into the receiver, but if the barrel I bought is a lemon, I'm glad that I didn't. When I get one that shoots well I'll bed that.

My CZ bolt rifle doesn't like Hornady Black, even my reloads with Hornady components won't Perform. Just maybe you will have to start reloading 6.5 Grendel sooner than you planned with other brand components to get the groups that will satisfy you.