Serbia adopting 6.5 Grendel as main military cartridge

[dobrodan]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5mm_Grendel

Serbia is in process of adopting rifle made by Zastava Arms [19] in 6.5 mm Grendel caliber as main armament for its armed forces. USA manufactured rifle in 6.5mm Grendel caliber will also be adopted in armament for special forces units after it passes testing in Technical Testing Center. Three types of 6.5mm Grendel ammunition produced by Prvi Partizan Uzice Serbia will be tested for use with this rifles. [20][21][22][23]

http://www.vs.rs/index.php?news_article=...1a649ddcfe Google-translate it...

I seem to remember mentioning this to be a possible outcome many years ago on the old forum, when we learned that PRVI Partizan was going to make Grendel ammo...

http://mondo.rs/a925508/Info/Drustvo/Voj...ruzje.html
Article from July about testing guns i various calibres, including 6.5 Grendel. (Use google translate)

http://www.novosti.rs/vesti/naslovna/dru...ecijalcima

[BluntForceTrauma]

http://mondo.rs/a925508/Info/Drustvo/Voj...ruzje.html Article from July about testing guns i various calibres, including 6.5 Grendel. (Use google translate)

The relevant paragraph straight from Google Translate reads:

During shooting examining modernized automatic rifle 7.62 mm and 5.56 mm, a new type of automatic sniper rifles and machine guns 6,5 mm "Grendel", modernized sniper rifles 7.62 mm "Lapua" and modernized guns.

[stanc]

http://www.vs.rs/index.php?news_article=...1a649ddcfe Google-translate it...

Couldn't view the photos in the above article, so I did a search that turned up the two images below.

The top photo is apparently encrypted, and on a Serb government website. Attempt to go to the site was blocked.

Anyway, the partial caption for the top photo translates as: "In comparative testing of modernized automatic rifle, 7.62 mm and 5.56 mm, the new family of automatic sniper rifles and machine guns 6,5 mm Grendel..."

Which makes me wonder if the rifle seen at left in the top pic, and right in lower pic, might be in 6.5 Grendel, because of the magazine shape/configuration?

[dobrodan]

Automatic rifle:

LMG:

[dobrodan]

Sniper rifle:

[stanc]

None of those photos are viewable on my computer. I guess I'll have to try Tony's forum, to find out if I can view them there.

[stanc]

Automatic rifle:


LMG:

Since the "LMG" photo is of a mag-fed weapon, am I correct in thinking that what you are calling an "automatic rifle" and "LMG" are what Americans would call an "assault rifle" and "automatic rifle"?

I guess there is still no belt-fed Grendel LMG?

[dobrodan]

That would be my guess, yes.

For the LMG, directly translated it would be something like "machine-rifle light"

I guess they don´t need a beltfed Grendel, as they have the PKM in 7.62R and eventually in 7.62 NATO should they need it. But I would not be too surprised if they make a Grendel PKM...

Pulling a Grendel out of a belt backwards should be very simple...

[Cockednlocked]

Rather than a dedicated belt-fed gun, seems the way to go with the Grendel would be a "SAW" version, like the M249, and a large box magazine, although belt-fed also works. Belt fed usually indicates crew served, at least one other to help feed the belt. Box mags are quicker to change and don't require lugging a separate can to contain the belt, or someone to assist feeding it, so mobility is better. Rounds stay cleaner in an enclosed magazine vs a belt, too.

Another design alternative would be similar to H&K's HK416, or the IAR, based on the HK416 and designated as the M27 by the USMC.

[dobrodan]

A possibility with the PKM-style backward extraction out of the belt, is that you could in theory encapsulate the cartridge in a thin plastic container, exposing only the rearmost part of the cartridge with the rim and the primer.

[stanc]

A possibility with the PKM-style backward extraction out of the belt, is that you could in theory encapsulate the cartridge in a thin plastic container, exposing only the rearmost part of the cartridge with the rim and the primer.

To accomplish what?

[dobrodan]

To keep the ammo clean until it is ready to be used.

The plastic container would be both a container and a link in the belt, at theoretically no extra weight or cost compared to a metal-linked belt.

[montana]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/...m-grendel/

Look's like it is a go for Serbia.

[biodsl]

How cool is that? Sweet.

[stanc]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/...m-grendel/

Look's like it is a go for Serbia.

Unfortunately, there is no confirmation or new information in that blog.

The two articles cited by the author are the same ones linked in the OP.

[stanc]

Photos of the new Serbian AK's (w/changeable barrels) that are reportedly meant to use up existing 7.62x39 ammo stocks before the eventual switch to 6.5 Grendel.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/m...msg=6807.1

[dobrodan]

http://www.blic.rs/vesti/drustvo/vojska-...je/svmw6e6

Google-translated:

SERBIAN ARMY: Testing of the new, modern weapons

Tanjug | 01. 10. 2016-14: 26h
| Comments: 63
At the military training grounds greatly tested the new guns, machine guns and sniper rifles for the Army of Serbia, while the other produces "Zastava Arms" from Kragujevac, ammunition in a new caliber of 6.5 millimeters "Grendel" real "first partizan" from Uzice.

Photo: Allatur, US Navy / Wikipedia
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As reported by RTS, the biggest newspaper of the same caliber automatic rifle, machine gun and sniper rifle, in relation to the existing four caliber in VS.

Great attention was attracted by the professional public information that the Serbian Army is testing a new weapon in the new caliber of 6.5 millimeters "Grendel".

Serbia first tested "Grendel" for the army, while in the US, Finland and several additional countries this shot used by hunters, according to a text by Goran Janićijevića.

The bullets have at least one drawback

The idea of ​​constructors and military planners is, as stated, the improvement of skills of fire infantry and special units VS election of the new bullet to be precise, have less recoil and better stopping power at greater distances.


Photo: V. Živojinović / RAS Serbia
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Existing solutions and testing still show that current ammunition used in the world: the Soviet bullets from 7.62 to 39 mm, the Russian bullets of 5.45 and 7.62 h 39 h 54 mm NATO rounds of 5.56 to 45 and 7.62 to 51 mm - always has at least one drawback.

If the stopping power of the big hitch is too strong, and if the recoil weapons smaller, less stopping power and longer range.

It is not negligible, the fact that the same caliber of 6.5 millimeters "Grendel," the Army of Serbia construct automatic rifles, machine guns and sniper rifles, and not the fact that the automatic rifle to be modular, ie it will not be able to use two caliber.

One of the caliber of the entire platoon

The Army of Serbia, as it reminds us, the infantry units on the level of water (up to 40 people) is used calibers 7.62 and 5.56 h 39 h 45 mm automatic rifles, 7.62 to 54 millimeters of machine guns and machine guns, and 7 , 9 to 57 millimeters for sniper rifles.

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New solutions, creating a caliber for the entire infantry platoon, which greatly facilitates the logistics and maintenance of weapons. Also, a new weapon system uses the reliable work of "Kalashnikov", which is in our army is constantly being used for almost half a century.

Fight with at least 500 meters

The wars in the 21st century have shown that warring forces usually do not approach each other but the infantry "beats" with the enemy with 500 or more meters.

Also, increasingly used helmets and armor, which requires a weapon at a distance of 500 meters has great stopping power, and the lack of existing automatic rifles and machine guns.

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That is why since the US intervention in Afghanistan in 2001 began to search for a new caliber, bullets participate in the race 6.5 millimeters "Grendel" and 6.8 millimeters "Remington".

Modular rifle

The US Special Operations Command has announced a competition to create a modular automatic rifle that had two arms, "Remington" of 6.8 and 7.62 and 5.56 millimeters, and could be modified rifle barrel and frame.

Guided by this idea, the experts of the Army of Serbia and domestic defense industry companies have recently begun to work on the development of modular rifle, which, except for the replacement of tubes and frames, has almost the same set of weapons like the existing rifles ?? which will greatly shorten the route to be used.


Photo: US Navy / Wikipedia
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The new weapon has a modern optical, laser and optical-electronic devices, to engage targets during the day, at night and in poor weather conditions.

Domestic manufacturers

Manufacturers are local companies' Sova najt visa "," Teleoptik "and" Sensor Infiz ".

Previous tests on polygons VS showed that 6.5 millimeter bullet "Grendel" at a distance of 500 meters is twice stronger stopping power from 7.62 to 39 millimeters, and 30 to 40 percent of the rounds 5.56 x 45 NATO.

Also, the bullet "Grendel" has less recoil and allows better control of gunfire, even for people less physical constitution.


Photo: Malis / Wikipedia
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The army, in addition to the new, tested and weapons that are already used to determine the differences, advantages and disadvantages. Tested a total of 14 types of weapons.

For new rifles mass is used to produce special plastic lining pipes, rifle, pistol grip and all products "PPT ?? earmarked 'from Trstenik.

Bullet "Grendel"

Bullet "grendel" defies the laws of nature, because it has a very particular path polo ?? of the moment got out of the tube.

Americans are testing a new grain concluded that when aiming the target at a distance of 600 meters, "Grendel" says a high trajectory of 1.2 meters when the bastard from an automatic rifle, and 1.07 meters when fired from a sniper.

This means that weapons can hit the target man-sized or smaller vehicle without setting the target mark (which is the most rifles adjusted by increments of 100 meters), at all distances from zero to 600 meters.

Serbia, as well as many countries in the world, working to improve small arms, and the fact that domestic companies and experts picked the bullet type "Grendel," to whom no one in the world has found a flaw, suggesting that the Army of Serbia in the future have a very good and reliable weapon, according to RTS.

[NugginFutz]

Domestic manufacturers

Manufacturers are local companies' Sova najt visa "," Teleoptik "and" Sensor Infiz ".

Previous tests on polygons VS showed that 6.5 millimeter bullet "Grendel" at a distance of 500 meters is twice stronger stopping power from 7.62 to 39 millimeters, and 30 to 40 percent of the rounds 5.56 x 45 NATO.

Also, the bullet "Grendel" has less recoil and allows better control of gunfire, even for people less physical constitution.

Yep: We've known that for quite some while.

Bullet "Grendel"

The bullet "Grendel" defies the laws of nature, because it has a very [flat] path from the time it comes out of the pipes.

Americans are testing a new grain concluded that when aiming the target at a distance of 600 meters, "Grendel" says a high trajectory of 1.2 meters when the bastard from an automatic rifle, and 1.07 meters when fired from a sniper.

Really trying to figure out who/what they're talking about on this. If I get what the author means, he's saying that "Americans" and whatever round they're using claim it will have a drop of 1.2 meters over a 600 meter range. Using the flattest shooting ammo I can find (123 Scenar@ 2500 fps) I come up with 2.6 meters of drop - more than double the author's numbers. Troubling, as he doesn't cite who is claiming this miracle.

This means that weapons can hit the target man-sized or smaller vehicle without setting the target mark (which is the most rifles adjusted by increments of 100 meters), at all distances from zero to 600 meters.

The author is essentially claiming a PBR of 600 meters. No wonder he thinks the Grendel can defy nature. Seriously, I love this round, but 600 meter point blank range?!! Claims like this are why some people have credibility issues with proponents of the Grendel.

Serbia, as well as many countries in the world, working to improve small arms, and the fact that domestic companies and experts picked the bullet type "Grendel," to whom no one in the world has found a flaw, suggesting that the Army of Serbia in the future have a very good and reliable weapon, according to RTS.

Their experts chose the round, but it certainly has not been without its detractors. To claim that "no one in the world has found a flaw" is, well, just naive. RTS, which is a Russian language paper, is being cited for this high praise of the Grendel, but I haven't located the source article, yet.



I have, though, seen what I consider element zero, which is the Serbian Army's website (discussed earlier in this and in other threads). <Link>

It supports the gist of what this article says, but I think what we really have here is a case of a Serbian Grendel fanboy gushing at a Serbian journalist who doesn't really understand ballistics. It's a shame, really, because the article could have stood on its own merits, even without the (slight) exaggerations.

Thanks for the link, Dan.

[dobrodan]

I think what they mean is that the trajectory (if zeroed at 600m) is never higher than 1.2m above the line of aim.

[stanc]

Really trying to figure out who/what they're talking about on this. If I get what the author means, he's saying that "Americans" and whatever round they're using claim it will have a drop of 1.2 meters over a 600 meter range. Using the flattest shooting ammo I can find (123 Scenar@ 2500 fps) I come up with 2.6 meters of drop - more than double the author's numbers. Troubling, as he doesn't cite who is claiming this miracle.

Since it says "high trajectory of 1.2 meters," I read that as the maximum height of the bullet's trajectory when fired at a 600-meter target, not the drop at 600 meters.