When Bill described the theoretical Marine above, I was thinking of several guys I know, and wondering which one he was talking about. One of them went to the clinic with his unit (yes, he had been hit with 2 VBIED's within 30 sec of each other on one day during OIF in 2005, held his dying brother in his arms on another day where a sniper in Ramadi shot his gunner through the neck, then almost drowned in an armored vehicle on another deployment to Afghanistan when it fell into a river).
He complained of all the symptoms Bill mentioned ver batim, and they told him he's good-to-go, and to stop coming to the clinic. They weren't going to give him a PTSD diagnosis if he ran in there butt-naked covered in MRE peanut butter. They did CAT Scans, MRI's, verbal interviews where he described the headaches, unprovoked fits of rage, aggression, and agitation. "Suck it up and drive on soldier, no diagnosis for you." He said they implied that he was faking to get out of deploying, and this kid actually loved to deploy, as long as he got to go outside the wire.
Now imagine taking someone from similar circumstances, with 2-6 combat deployments, and pulling them out of their comfort zone around other men, weapons, equipment, and real-world missions. Drop them into fairytale civilian life surrounded by millions of attention-deficit dipsticks who have no clue what the real world is like outside the US, where our "poverty bracket" lives with luxuries like bathtubs, obesity, and easy-access 24/7 entertainment, with no physical labor.
Even worse, have one of these types of people as a manager at your new place of employment, if you're blessed enough to even find a job, treating you like the part-timer straight out of high school, while you look at his/her "leadership style" and quietly reserve the series of images of the physical and verbal destruction sequences he or she would experience in the organization you just came from, where such incompetence would be squashed...extinguished for the pathetic weakness it is.
Then you see propaganda hit pieces on Pravda talking about what's going on with the wars, and wonder why you're back here, when you should be there next to America's finest professionals dishing out 5.56 & 7.62 into bugger-eaters' faces, and taking care of business. Then you realize how much you despise the careerist schmucks who suck off the camouflage welfare system, while padding their NCOERs and OERs to ensure the highest pay grade for retirement with minimal risk, and you feel like you don't belong in either place.
You can't talk with your family about living for weeks on-end in the same clothes, with cheesy crotch rot and no re-supply from your XO or 1SG, who forgot about you and your Squad's OP, and the conditions 3rd-world people live in who you lived off of. You speak a different language filled with a laundry list of acronyms, jargon, and nicknames peculiar to combat arms guys, and even more peculiar from one service to the next. Try editing your vocabulary after years of around-the-clock "F*** this, you f***ing f***, f***bag, motherf***ing, f***stick son of a f***ing f***!"
You could have been raised by nuns, and leave that environment with some serious life issues, but somebody has to do the job. My hat goes off to someone like Chris Kyle who is willing to do all he can to help guys like this rehabilitate back into society. If what they say is true about the perp, he might not have even been cognizant of his actions until later, when he allegedly told his sister, "I traded my soul for a truck today..."
It's all about taking calculated risks at the end of the day.
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BjornF16 Wrote:Are you "yelling" with boldface?...LOL.
Mea culpa on the 100% comment...you didn't say it, but I inferred it.
I'm a hopeless case...I believe drugs can be mind altering and behavior modifying (for good and bad). Maybe some of these folks are inclined to anti-social behaviors, but I firmly believe that the meds can be pushing them over the edge. I have no proof that is so...no one has any proof it isn't so.
Every case is different. I realize the challenge is to determine which are ticking time bombs.
For a lot of personal reasons, my opinion of doctors in general isn't very high. I know there are some really good doctors out there, but I find that the doctors who REALLY care seem to be far fewer than in years past. American doctors (IMO) tend to be pill pushers instead of good old fashioned docs. Not trying to insult anyone...just my personal opinion based upon my family's personal experiences. (BTW, one of my brother's is an ENT doc...while I respect his professional opinions, I in no way subscribe to all of his professional opinions).
Sorry, not yelling; using boldface to make sure that it was obvious what I was saying vs. your original.
I'll agree that there is no proof either way on the cases mentioned. I can, however, document cases where someone intervened just before a catastrophe, and meds were helpful to get that individual back on track. I know of at least one case where the individual was armed, on his way, and was stopped by a friend who transported him to the ER, and then he was admitted for inpatient care for a couple weeks.
He has been stable, on meds now for nearly 10 years. He does not keep firearms in his possession, (his choice), but does enjoy shooting from time to time. He has maintained his concealed permit, though I'm not sure how, since he fits the criteria for an automatic decline. Fortunately, he isn't a patient of mine, and the individual who maintains his firearms is well trained on what to watch for with him. I've been beside him on the range, and he is very respectful, very safe, and very helpful. He only shoots a double barrel shotgun, and single shot rifles. I always wondered why until a friend clued me in. So far as I know, he has never threatened anyone since that first episode.
Its possible that he petitioned and got his firearms rights back, because that is a possibilty, too. I do know he still takes meds, because he jokes about it.
Old fashioned docs used a lot of art, and a little medicine. Try staying in business today using that formula! People today get downright angry when I tell them their symptoms are consistent with a virus, and that no meds ar necessary, they will get better on their own. They want a pill, right now!
I encourage my patients to get online and learn everything they can about their disease, because anyone can be an expert on what they have. The information is out there. Learn your way to good health. But way to many people just want a pill and everything to be better.
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
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LRRPF52 Wrote:When Bill described the theoretical Marine above, I was thinking of several guys I know, and wondering which one he was talking about. One of them went to the clinic with his unit (yes, he had been hit with 2 VBIED's within 30 sec of each other on one day during OIF in 2005, held his dying brother in his arms on another day where a sniper in Ramadi shot his gunner through the neck, then almost drowned in an armored vehicle on another deployment to Afghanistan when it fell into a river).
He complained of all the symptoms Bill mentioned ver batim, and they told him he's good-to-go, and to stop coming to the clinic. They weren't going to give him a PTSD diagnosis if he ran in there butt-naked covered in MRE peanut butter. They did CAT Scans, MRI's, verbal interviews where he described the headaches, unprovoked fits of rage, aggression, and agitation. "Suck it up and drive on soldier, no diagnosis for you." He said they implied that he was faking to get out of deploying, and this kid actually loved to deploy, as long as he got to go outside the wire.
Now imagine taking someone from similar circumstances, with 2-6 combat deployments, and pulling them out of their comfort zone around other men, weapons, equipment, and real-world missions. Drop them into fairytale civilian life surrounded by millions of attention-deficit dipsticks who have no clue what the real world is like outside the US, where our "poverty bracket" lives with luxuries like bathtubs, obesity, and easy-access 24/7 entertainment, with no physical labor.
Even worse, have one of these types of people as a manager at your new place of employment, if you're blessed enough to even find a job, treating you like the part-timer straight out of high school, while you look at his/her "leadership style" and quietly reserve the series of images of the physical and verbal destruction sequences he or she would experience in the organization you just came from, where such incompetence would be squashed...extinguished for the pathetic weakness it is.
Then you see propaganda hit pieces on Pravda talking about what's going on with the wars, and wonder why you're back here, when you should be there next to America's finest professionals dishing out 5.56 & 7.62 into bugger-eaters' faces, and taking care of business. Then you realize how much you despise the careerist schmucks who suck off the camouflage welfare system, while padding their NCOERs and OERs to ensure the highest pay grade for retirement with minimal risk, and you feel like you don't belong in either place.
You can't talk with your family about living for weeks on-end in the same clothes, with cheesy crotch rot and no re-supply from your XO or 1SG, who forgot about you and your Squad's OP, and the conditions 3rd-world people live in who you lived off of. You speak a different language filled with a laundry list of acronyms, jargon, and nicknames peculiar to combat arms guys, and even more peculiar from one service to the next. Try editing your vocabulary after years of around-the-clock "F*** this, you f***ing f***, f***bag, motherf***ing, f***stick son of a f***ing f***!"
You could have been raised by nuns, and leave that environment with some serious life issues, but somebody has to do the job. My hat goes off to someone like Chris Kyle who is willing to do all he can to help guys like this rehabilitate back into society. If what they say is true about the perp, he might not have even been cognizant of his actions until later, when he allegedly told his sister, "I traded my soul for a truck today..."
It's all about taking calculated risks at the end of the day.
fantastic post, LRRP. preach it, brother!
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LRRPF52 Wrote:When Bill described the theoretical Marine above, I was thinking of several guys I know, and wondering which one he was talking about. One of them went to the clinic with his unit (yes, he had been hit with 2 VBIED's within 30 sec of each other on one day during OIF in 2005, held his dying brother in his arms on another day where a sniper in Ramadi shot his gunner through the neck, then almost drowned in an armored vehicle on another deployment to Afghanistan when it fell into a river).
He complained of all the symptoms Bill mentioned ver batim, and they told him he's good-to-go, and to stop coming to the clinic. They weren't going to give him a PTSD diagnosis if he ran in there butt-naked covered in MRE peanut butter. They did CAT Scans, MRI's, verbal interviews where he described the headaches, unprovoked fits of rage, aggression, and agitation. "Suck it up and drive on soldier, no diagnosis for you." He said they implied that he was faking to get out of deploying, and this kid actually loved to deploy, as long as he got to go outside the wire.
Now imagine taking someone from similar circumstances, with 2-6 combat deployments, and pulling them out of their comfort zone around other men, weapons, equipment, and real-world missions. Drop them into fairytale civilian life surrounded by millions of attention-deficit dipsticks who have no clue what the real world is like outside the US, where our "poverty bracket" lives with luxuries like bathtubs, obesity, and easy-access 24/7 entertainment, with no physical labor.
Even worse, have one of these types of people as a manager at your new place of employment, if you're blessed enough to even find a job, treating you like the part-timer straight out of high school, while you look at his/her "leadership style" and quietly reserve the series of images of the physical and verbal destruction sequences he or she would experience in the organization you just came from, where such incompetence would be squashed...extinguished for the pathetic weakness it is.
Then you see propaganda hit pieces on Pravda talking about what's going on with the wars, and wonder why you're back here, when you should be there next to America's finest professionals dishing out 5.56 & 7.62 into bugger-eaters' faces, and taking care of business. Then you realize how much you despise the careerist schmucks who suck off the camouflage welfare system, while padding their NCOERs and OERs to ensure the highest pay grade for retirement with minimal risk, and you feel like you don't belong in either place.
You can't talk with your family about living for weeks on-end in the same clothes, with cheesy crotch rot and no re-supply from your XO or 1SG, who forgot about you and your Squad's OP, and the conditions 3rd-world people live in who you lived off of. You speak a different language filled with a laundry list of acronyms, jargon, and nicknames peculiar to combat arms guys, and even more peculiar from one service to the next. Try editing your vocabulary after years of around-the-clock "F*** this, you f***ing f***, f***bag, motherf***ing, f***stick son of a f***ing f***!"
You could have been raised by nuns, and leave that environment with some serious life issues, but somebody has to do the job. My hat goes off to someone like Chris Kyle who is willing to do all he can to help guys like this rehabilitate back into society. If what they say is true about the perp, he might not have even been cognizant of his actions until later, when he allegedly told his sister, "I traded my soul for a truck today..."
It's all about taking calculated risks at the end of the day.
I know too many good guys who have these kinds of stories. I agree, its a travesty that we haven't figured this out better.
I have a clinic in a small town, but we have two criminal correction facilities, and ex-military guys seem drawn like flies. They get to still wear a uniform, get paid A LOT better, and have a regular schedule. BUT a fair number have some background issues. These stories are too common.
I still thank every one who comes in for their service, and we work on what we can.
Thanks to all the vets on this board for their service, too!
For those of you that don't know, LRRPF52 and I are good friends who very much enjoy each others company (Well, I enjoy his, at least!). We have some difference in age, and obviously, we have some difference in opinions about some things. BUT...I would trust him to the end of the world to cover my back. He is incredibly good at what he does. I respect his opinions, and I can argue with him without malice. We have different experiences, and that has given us different viewpoints, but I treasure and respect him. If it appears that we are after each other, its because we both know that we can trust the other to not take the attack personally, and also know that the other respects our opinion, even if it differs.
There is a story told about a boy who ask his dad what a "good ol boy" is. The father says, "Well, you know this gentlemen that I meet every week, the ones that are well educated and have done well? The ones who own their own businesses, or have made big businessess from little ones? The men who treat women with respect, honor their elders, and give lots of help to the poor and weak? The ones who make sure the widows have fire wood in the winter and ice in the summer? The ones who are always around when someone needs a helping hand, and always show up to funerals?" The boy says, "Yes, I see you with them, and I know some are judges and doctors and even lawyers." The father says, "That's right". The boys says, "So are those good ol' boys?" and the dad says. "Good old boys are a step above them!"
That's my opinion of LRRPF52 and few others that I've met here, they are good ol' boys from that mold!
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
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This thread has wandered and roamed over a bit of territory so I'm going to swerve a bit to share this:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/TNJ9umv10EM...detailpage
I am humbled by what this man does.
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Wow, that was really very touching wheelguner, thanks for sharing that.
Bill, Thanks for your kind words. I feel the same way about you. For those who haven't met Bill, he's about the nicest guy you'll meet, and would give you the shirt off his back.
wheelguner, thanks for sharing that video as well. When I was a kid, one of my recruiters told me that you will never look at the Flag again the same way after serving in the military, especially if you go to war. I actually had some excellent recruiters who were up-front with me about everything. All were Gulf War vets, and the one who had me sign my papers was a Grenada, Panama, Desert Storm vet with the 82nd each time.
As I work with boys in the Scouting Program, I try to convey the utmost respect and reverence for our Nation's Flag, and the freedom, blood and Union it represents. I teach them how to display, fold, hoist, and retrieve the Colors after my experience handling flags over the actual caskets of veterans in Arlington National Cemetery on live funerals, day after day. I hate drill and ceremonies, but funerals are one exception where they are totally appropriate.
Grendel-Gene
Unregistered
JASmith Wrote:"Nut Job" is an interesting description for those of us who either have suffered or are suffering from PTSD.
If this guy really has the disorder, he deserves our sympathy too.
The main thing is find ways to identify and treat. Then isolate those for whom the treatment doesn't seem to work.
If a guy who suddenly snaps and shoots two people ( supposedly friends who are obviously going out of their way to help him ) isn't a "nut job" ( PTSD OR NOT ).... then I am not sure what else to call him!!!!
AND YES, I understand that war is hell and that it can really mess you up... But shooting these two great men and driving off with their pickup truck didn't fix anything... Did it?
So I have to believe that this guy sitting in the Stephenville jail is smart enough to know that he has really fucked up at some level... Which means that what he did, was by definition, insane; Thus my use of the term "Nut job" was in fact my being somewhat charitable.
My theory on why the American Sniper was killed is a bit more sinister. My first thought when I saw the picture of the shooter with the full beard and sideburns was Muslim. It would be interesting to find out if the shooter converted to Islam when he was over in the middle east. If so, this may have actually been a hit to get even for all of the infidel haters that Chris killed over there as a sniper. If the shooter is Muslim, don't expect that to be reported on the news.
Grendel-Gene
Unregistered
LongRanger.....While i am sure that there are many conspiracies out there, I dont think that EVERYTHING that happens has to have one behind it. some people just decide not to shave for a while.... especially if they are depressed. So I don't think Al'Qaeda is behind this one!!! Lets get a grip; not every psycho is a muslim, beard or not!!!!!
Grendel-Gene Wrote:LongRanger.....While i am sure that there are many conspiracies out there, I dont think that EVERYTHING that happens has to have one behind it. some people just decide not to shave for a while.... especially if they are depressed. So I don't think Al'Qaeda is behind this one!!! Lets get a grip; not every psycho is a muslim, beard or not!!!!!
+1
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I'm reviving this post in hopes of stimulating the purchase of 2 books: American Sniper, written by Chris Kyle with Jim DeFelice tells Chris Kyles story as the most successful US sniper. All proceeds from the book go to charities that support wounded veterans.
The second book is American Gun: A History of the US in Ten Firearms. This book, recently released, was completed by his wife and co-author William Doyle after his death.
While American Sniper has language that is probably not appropriate for the young or sensitive, (but is very typical of my experience around military men), American Gun is a GREAT read for all. Its fast, and the guns covered are excellent choices. These proceeds will help support his wife and children. After reading it, I consider it one of the books that are "must haves" for any gunnie library.
Enjoy!
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
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Just went over and bought the Kindle version of American Sniper.
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Good call Bill.
Off to the store we go-perfect cause.
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One of the first thing I did after Chris Kyle passed was go and buy his book. I chose to support his family during that time as a patron. Unfortunately I haven't had time to read it, not yet anyways.
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin
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I am not surprised, but I am sorely disappointed in that douche, Jesse Ventura. Apparently, he is continuing his lawsuit against Chris Kyle, with his wife as a substitute defendant.
"A Ventura attorney had argued Taya Kyle should be substituted as a defendant because Chris Kyle's estate will continue to profit from book sales and a recent movie deal, and Ventura has a right to protect his reputation." ( Fox News)
Protect his Reputation? In my opinion, he has just cemented it in the most derogatory sense.
According to the StarTribute of Minneapolis, a Magistrate Judge has named Taya Kyle as replacement defendant, which allows this lawsuit to go forward.
I'd like to urge the horde to boycott "Scruff Face", as Chris Kyle had referred to him in his book, but Ventura is already such a has-been, I wouldn't know what to suggest.
"A problem thoroughly understood is always fairly simple. Found your opinions on facts, not prejudices. We know too many things that are not true."
Charles F. Kettering
I've been reading this book this week. It's an interesting glimps into the spec ops world. Written like you're having a series of casual conversations on "what it was like" put into chronological order. It's definitely worth buying and reading. I'm sure the proceds will help his family.
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