What you guys think about J&T?

[Norsk]

Good to hear alot of you guys are getting the J&T's to shoot since I did get one. Should be hear today. I'll be putting it on a spikes lower with a geissele trigger and an A2 stock. Not sure yet what stock I'm going to end up with have looked at magpul's PRS and vltor's mod stock and a few others but not made up my mind so for now the A2 is fine.

[warped]

I still run an A2 stock on my long range rifle, it just works.

I use it for the reason that I can use lead in the stock to balance the rifle

[philmurphy]

Norsk,

I use A2 stocks on all of my target rifles. I use them for the same reason that Warped does. The ability to balance the rifle with weight in the stock. I measure the amount of additional comb height needed to center my eye on the occular lens, and apply the appropriate height stick-on comb riser. Be careful. Too, much height is worse than too little. Check your height in your normal shooting position. I build up gaffer's tape, on the comb, until my eye centers, and then measure the tape thickness.

Phil

[MrSurgicalPrecision]

I still run an A2 stock on my long range rifle, it just works.

I use it for the reason that I can use lead in the stock to balance the rifle

I'm sold on PRS stocks myself but I can't fault anyone for using the good ol' A2 stock.

[Norsk]

Yeah I'll be sticking with the A2 untill I fall in love with something different..I got the J&T and took my wife out to the range. After sighting in she was able to shoot just over an inch @100 but had a few flyer's hear and there I'm thinking with a few more rounds down the pipe it might tighten up a bit more. I didnt get to shoot it other than a fast sight in because my wife is a gun hog :mad:. All in all I'm happy with it. One look and you can tell its a budget build but still first time out shot close to an inch for $650.
I should be getting mine next week I went with a Precision Firearms neptune II with a 20 inch Les Baer 1 in 8" twist Stainless Steel Cut Rifling Barrel. I'll get some pic's up once I get them both.

[VASCAR2]

Thanks for posting about your J&T.

[pinzgauer]

One look and you can tell its a budget build but still first time out shot close to an inch for $650.

If the "budget build" aspect means plain A2 furniture, service trigger, etc, that's what you get. But side by side with many other rack grade (armalite, bushy, dpms, etc) they are virtually identical, and in some cases better. Properly staked BCG, Forged, correct height front sight base, etc. Shaw 4140 barrel. Forged 7075 upper/lower. "Contract" fire control parts.

Want M4 ramps? Option. 4250 mil-spec barrel (in 5.56). Option. Free float tube. Option. YHM/DD/whoever rail... option. Geiselle/JP/whoever trigger? Option. FA LMT BCG.... Option Mil-spec buffer tube... Option

In other words, you get a basic A2 or A3 build unless you chose to upgrade. But that basic build is as good quality or better as rifles/uppers selling for $200 more. It's not a LBC, or other custom build. Or even an AA, Sabre, etc. But compared to many well known brands JT does more right than they do. (IE: The infamous AR quality chart)

But they are accurate, reliable, solid rifles. I've never seen one not work flawlessly. All the carping and problems people talk about on this forum and others about making their high dollar builds work just has not been an issue with any of 9-10 JT builds I'm personally aware of.

Not that JT needs defending....Some will turn their nose up no matter what. Others will recognize them for what they are, just a good value entry point for grendel.

I just had to comment on the "budget build".... to some that means sub-standard parts. When for the JT it means basic but solid AR. Lotta bang for the buck, and nothing to be embarrassed about. And very likely to shoot very well. Ours have for sure!

My most recent build is an LMT M4 lower, AA SS Barrel/bolt, AA upper, GI Contract FA BC and remaining upper parts. YHM sight/gas block. MOE green furniture. It's a solid carbine middy build, sub-moa and improving. I can point out slight differences between the LMT lower and the JT lower side by side. None that effect reliability/accuracy. I'd expect differences, the LMT lower was more money, and full up mil-spec. But side by side, my JT bull barrel/free float will out shoot it. All day long. With a "kit" that cost less than many grendel barrels do.

So don't be embarrassed by your budget build. Shoot it, and you'll likely be surprised. I view them as the "rat rods" of the AR world. Sleepers, and it's always fun to be underestimated but overdeliver!

[warped]

Yep there is nothing wrong with saving money, my builds all have standard milspec trigger groups (Colt), I tuned them though and you would be hard presssed to tell the difference between the triggers I have and a high dollar one of the same pull weight (3.5lbs)

[pinzgauer]

my builds all have standard milspec trigger groups (Colt), I tuned them though and you would be hard presssed to tell the difference

Sure wish I knew how to do that!!! I paid the extra $40 to get the LMT two stage on my m4 lower, and I'll never be happy with a standard trigger again.

There is also another aspect to the saving money bit... I've found I can get Daniel Defence LPK's for the same price as generics & DPMS, with magpul trigger guard to boot! GI Contract BC's for the same or less than generics. Colt lose parts (handguard cap, delta ring, etc) for same as generic.

So my interest of late is to see how much I can move to better quality parts while keeping the cost in budge build range. You have to pick & choose to do that, so the kit's are better if you are not up to that.

That's also how I ended up with a LMT complete lower, I could not build one for less than I could buy it complete once I shopped around. Especially not with upgrade trigger.

[Norsk]

Dont get me wrong when I said it was a budget build I'm not embarrassed one bit. I take pride in saving a buck whenever I can and this upper saved me a few and is shooting darn good. It is getting sent back for an odd problem the face of the carrier @ about elleven'o clock seems to be smacking into the barrel ext. I own a few ar's and not seen this happen but one call to J&T and they are fixing the problem even putting a rush on it to get it back to me in less than a week. Problems happen and J&T has been quick to fix it so they get a thumbs up from me.

[michaelmew]

I had written this up before on the old forum with all the links to these fine sources of quality parts on a dime. Let me know if there is interest in me doing this again, as I'm all about saving money so I can spend it on ammo and gas to the range.LRRPF52

I thought I would be able to do this on my own, but I am still coming out above budget. I would greatly appreciate a write-up with links on the ways to save money.

[LRRPF52]

Gents,

Unfortunately, in the last 8 months, many sources of my affordable parts have risen in price significantly. I got a bunch of blem uppers from LAR for $48 per, but they are now $68. I got a bunch of excellent 7075 T6 A2 lowers from NoDakSpud for $65 per, but they are now out of stock. Blems from BCM used to be $69.95, but now they're $79.95, and they tend to fit loose so I don't buy them anymore.

The LAR blems looked and fit better than most of the other standard uppers I have ever dealt with. They just had an issue with the brass deflector where a tool had shaved off .004" where it joins with the upper-totally not noticeable to the human eye, but a laser ISO9001 picked it up so they failed QC. Beautiful uppers really.

I order LPK's for $30 from Brownell's, minus the trigger and hammer, since I have extras or will install a match trigger anyway.

I was getting actual Military Colt bolts from foreign military sales guns returned to the US as parts kits, with no signs of actual use. Those bolts sold for $50, so I bought a bunch. Now they are $75! You can get a brand new MPI shot-peened bolt from BCM for $69.95, so I wouldn't even bother with the surplus ones now.

I build the bolt carrier up from scratch using a stripped BCM carrier, and whatever bolt and small parts I choose. Wolff extra power extractor springs from Brownell's in a 3-pack when needed.

With the deals on those previously available lowers and uppers, and a deal on nitro-carb'd barrels, I could do a high-end carbine for $630, with quality parts you will never see on factory guns from the big makers. Add a Troy free-float TRX or Apex machining handguard and a JP trigger, and you're still under $1k. I also spray and bake-on Cerakote on all my receivers, barrels, gas blocks, extension tubes, end plates, and lock rings before re-assembly. It's really the way to go with firearms finishes, and I've seen long-term results with Duracoat, KG, Alumahyde, etc. Cerakote is in a world of its own as far as surface texture and durability are concerned.

Here are some of the blasters I have done:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]203[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]204[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]205[/ATTACH]

The last pic shows how I like to funnel the magwell on a standard A2 lower before I Cerakote it.

LRRPF52

[pinzgauer]

Without compromising quality, here's my formula. Assuming collapsable stock:

Lower $224

• $74 Daniel Defense LPK (PSA or DSG)
  
• $70 MOE stock, mil-spec tube, Carbine buffer, mil-spec spring (DSG stock kit, or as part of $99 carbine kit if building an upper)
  
• $80 Surplus arms & ammo aero-precision lower (or your flavor, you can pay more, but it won't be better unless you jump to billet)
  

Upper is harder, just more options:

• $90 AA Upper
  
• $15 AA A2 Flashhider
  
• $280 Forum 16" AA SS barrel/bolt
  
• $42 Mil Contract M16 complete bolt carrier (G&R Tactical- the real deal, mfg has GI contract for parts)
  
• $20 LMT tactical charger handle (found for same price as generic, much better made)
  
• $65 YHM 9835 sight/gas block blem (ebay)
  
• $28?? delta ring assembly, handguard cap, gas tube, crush washer (RRA- best value I found, easy to order, better than DPMS/Delton generic)
  
• $30 MOE handguard with free grip (DSG, order as carbine kit for $99 with rear stock)
  
• $20 LMT SOPMOD clone rear sight (UTG, amazon)
  

My build using the above is one of my favorites, Shoots great! though I used a sundevil lower initially.

Last lower, I shopped around and found I could get an LMT complete lower with mil-spec everything for $300. For the $75 difference in cost vs the cheapest I could build one with decent parts, I went LMT. And will never go back. And found out that adding a two stage trigger was much cheaper than upgrading triggers later, so went with that as well. But the basic LMT defender lower is a jamming deal in my book, especially if you can buy locally and avoid shipping/xfer fee.

But Daniel defense parts kit is the same cost as J&T or DPMS, it's a no brainer. Same for the MOE M4 stock with mil contract tube/spring/buffer.

The formula puts you right at $820, with excellent quality parts where it matters. SS Barrel, MOE furniture is becoming my fav, and even the cheapie rear sight I prefer over some of the more expensive options. (It's a pretty decent clone of the LMT derived from a cut down A2 handle)

You don't save an awful lot on the upper VS buying one preassembled, but you get SS barrel instead of plain, MOE furniture, and a better gas block. You'll need an armorer's wrench, upper block, torque wrench, so borrow or buy.

You can upgrade from there. Many ways to build a fancier/more expensive grendel!

[michaelmew]

Gents,

The last pic shows how I like to funnel the magwell on a standard A2 lower before I Cerakote it.

LRRPF52

Is that something you do yourself with a dremel tool or similar? I'm guessing the purpose would be to improve tactical reloads.

[michaelmew]

The formula puts you right at $820, with excellent quality parts where it matters.

Thanks to Pinzgauer and LRRPF52 for the insight. I had in my notes that this could all be done for around $700, but I suppose that was several years ago when I did my first AR. Plus, I know the parts I'm going to upgrade and spend money on (barrel, trigger, handguard, stock) so now I can get a complete picture with the other parts and see where the discrepencies are. I really appreciate all the help. Next time you guys are in Dallas, you've got a couple rounds on me.


-michaelmew

[pinzgauer]

I had in my notes that this could all be done for around $700

You can build a basic, servicable M4 or A2 grendel with a licensed barrel/bolt for right at $700: Buy a J&T basic kit for $615 (really $640'ish with shipping), and add a cheap lower to it. That would put you under $700 assuming you bought your lower locally, etc. Mag would be another $11.

You'd have serviceable components in a grendel M4gery, but probably not mil-spec. All of the J&T kit's I've seen/built have been great shooters, and a good value. And work out of the box. But there would be differences- Plain shaw barrel vs SS. Forged sight vs pictany/folding. Generic furniture vs MOE, plain ramps vs M4.

The biggest tangible difference will be in the LPK... J&T has probably better than average quality for generic, but it's nowhere near as nice as the Daniel Defense LPK for the same money. Same for the barrel... the forum AA SS deal is hard to beat, and for a non-premium barrel mine is shooting very well. You could probably knock a bit off my formula by using generic commercial stock (vs mil-spec), forged FSB, generic handguard, etc.

But with the J&T kit you would not have to assemble the upper and it will work, no fiddling. I like building uppers, and have the tools, so it's a non-issue for me. It just depends on what you want to do.

From there the sky is the limit, you can certainly spend much more. :-)

[LRRPF52]

Is that something you do yourself with a dremel tool or similar? I'm guessing the purpose would be to improve tactical reloads.

Yes, I use a Dremel, hand files, and also use a wire brush wheel to clean up and roughen the surface before Cerakoting it. I prefer to Cerakote over anodized aluminum, but raw aluminum needs blasting or rough texturing to help the Cerakote adhere better. The funnel mag well does help with reloads, whether emergency, tactical, or routine. What I like is a continuous curve for the mag well, versus a constant angle that the feed lips just smack into. The continuous curve helps the mag feed into the well more smoothly, and I also open it up as much to the front and rear as possible, even to include cutting into the MOE or other winter trigger guards.

LRRPF52

[LRRPF52]

For a high quality budget build,

Lower $195

$DPMS LPK from Brownell's $55
$75 Spike's Tactical Buttstock kit
$65 McKay A2 lower from NoDakSpud


Upper: $517 Grendel/$458 5.56

$48 LAR "Blem" Upper
$15 AA A2 Flashhider for Grendel, $5 A2 flash hider for 5.56 from Brownell's or Midway
$269 16" AA SS barrel/bolt from Midway or 5.56 $170 Nitro-carb'd special sale M4 barrel, $50 Colt GI Bolt MPI/Shot-peened from Apex
$51 stripped bolt carrier, M16 weight, BCM
$41 BCM Gunfighter Charge Handle from Brownell's...you could cut cost here with a generic CH for $12
$23 Sadlak or YHM low-profile gas block, Brownell's
$48 DPMS rifle-length free-float tube, Brownell's
$22 DPMS Gas system kit with carrier key, gas tube, extra gas rings, gas tube roll pin, Brownell's/Midway

For both of those above, that is with a free-float tube and no iron sights. It is with the understanding that you have the correct tools for assembly as well.

I have used LPK's from most of the different outlets/brand names, but haven't seen any difference in performance in them over the past 5 years. Back in 2003, I would sometimes get kits that were missing parts, or a bolt catch wouldn't fit, but I haven't seen that in a while, so I just order the DPMS LPK's. If you run suppressed, that might change with bolt catch breakage, but I haven't seen it in any 5.56 guns yet...just AR10's.

Thanks for the heads up on DSG and G&R Pinzgauer. I hadn't seen them yet.

LRRPF52

[rg1]

Bought a 6.5 Grendel upper from J&T. It's the heavy 24" stainless 1/9 barrel, free float tube, DoubleStar gas block. Put it on a Rock River lower with 2 stage RR trigger, A2 buttstock, with a RR Hi-Rise scope mount and a 6.5-20 Leupold Vari-X III recently sent to Leupold to have M1 turrets put on. It has a Harris bipod with leg notches and the tilt feature. Shot it the 1st time Thursday shooting only 17 rounds. I started shooting to zero the scope plus cleaning for the 1st few rounds. I only shot one group to get an idea of accuracy to expect. Was shooting Hornady 123 A-Max factory. I only shot a 4 round group and had 3 bullet holes barely touching mostly in a horizontal group with one shot about 1/2" higher center of the other 3. Slight breeze from behind and left, shooting off the bipod and bench. I only shot it at 100 yards. Velocity of the Hornady 123 A-Max in my 24" barrel averaged 2610fps at 10 ft. thru a Oehler 35P. Temperature during shooting was 90 degrees. Plus I'm just an ordinary shooter with little talent.
I understand that the heavy barrel J&T are Wilson barrels. Quality and appearance looks very good and for the price I'm more than satisfied. I wasn't wanting to spend a lot but wanted a good quality upper and J&T/DoubleStar has a good reputation and stand by their products. The barrel looks very slick and cleaned easily. Didn't have time to do any load development. Have Lapua brass, Hornady 123 A-Max and Sierra 123 BTHP's to test using AA2520 and BL-C2 all using RP 7 1/2 primers loading with a standard full-length Redding die set. Hope to do some load work-ups in the near future and hope my hand loads do as well and hopefully better than factory Hornady.

[pinzgauer]

Bought a 6.5 Grendel upper from J&T. It's the heavy 24" stainless 1/9 barrel, free float tube, DoubleStar gas block.

The 20" version of this was my first Grendel, and I had similar results as you even with cheaper glass. A friend has it now, and it's still shooting great!

Won't win any prestige awards, but it sure shoots good! I almost think of it as a sleeper, better to be underestimated. Lotta bang for the buck!