+- 6.5 Grendel Forum (https://65grendel.com)
+-- Forum: 6.5 GRENDEL DISCUSSION FORUMS (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: 6.5 Grendel ARs and Other Semi-Autos (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: What you guys think about J&T? (/showthread.php?tid=455)
What you guys think about J&T? - Norsk - 05-11-2011
Hi new guy hear
I'm building my own grendel atm but was thinking about trying a 24 inch bull barrel kit from J&T. I know it wont win me any "cool guy" points at the range but will it shoot? Or would I be better off just spending a few more buck's? I wont be doing any match shooting with it but I still like to see good groups. Main use for it will be coyote hunting and maybe a deer or two. Sorry if my questions are basic and somewhat hard to answer but what you exspect from a FNG :p
What you guys think about J&T? - warped - 05-11-2011
The main idea here is to buy once and cry once, there is nothing wrong with a J&T kit but for just a few dollars more there are better bbls.
Shilen, Satern, Templar, just to name a few.
IIRC Ricky was second place in last year's sniper comp using a Templar bbl and a WCI brake, he was shooting 5.56mm and competing against other calibers.
Does that make you realize the value of a great bbl?
What you guys think about J&T? - bwaites - 05-11-2011
Norsk Wrote:Hi new guy hear
It will shoot. Expect 1-2 MOA with just about anything, which is what a hunting rifle should do, and with the right bullet you can get it sub MOA, I expect.
It will be mostly dependent on where in the spectrum your barrel is. There aren't really any bad J&T barrels, just some better than others. With Satern, Templar, Shilen, etc. you really are paying for consistency from one barrel to the next. They all shoot from those guys.
What you guys think about J&T? - Norsk - 05-11-2011
Thanks for the input guys. I get buy once cry once and the grendel I'm building I'm not cutting any corners but I'm doing the build over time. So I started looking into a less costly rifle to get into my hands while I build my "real rifle" and once done with it I would give the J&T to my wife. I just dont want to buy junk if I can get it to shoot close to an inch I'll be happy with it.
What you guys think about J&T? - longdayjake - 05-12-2011
The J&T is not junk. I know they are cheap, but they actually work pretty darn well. I am very pleased with mine as it is NOT a range toy. I have killed quite a few chucks and even an elk with mine. However, if I were to do it again I would just build my own from cheaper aero precision parts and get a VERY nice barrel.
What you guys think about J&T? - LRRPF52 - 05-12-2011
Gents,
If you really want to save a bunch of money on building an AR, but still want high quality parts, there are ways to do it. You have to decide if you want a billet or standard upper receiver first. There is sound thinking behind using a beefier upper, although many standard uppers with great barrels have been able to shoot great. You can get a DPMS low-pro upper from Midway for $81 right now if you go the beefier upper route, but you might want to true it so the barrel extension flange is perfectly square to the action race ways if needed. This is a machinist task if you pursue it.
If you use a standard M4 upper, you can get DSA uppers from B-store pretty cheap, or blems from BCM or LAR ( I get blems from LAR for $48!!!!, and they only had .001" shaved off the top of the brass deflector where it adjoins the upper under the Picatinny rail...before being finished-nothing wrong with them at all, unless you're a CNC laser ISO-9001 QC station. They're actually better than any other M4 upper I have ordered from other sources, with a much better finish and tighter fit to the McKay lowers from NoDak. They sold out on those really quick.)
I rarely pay more than $75 for perfectly fine off-name 7075 T6 lowers. I was getting them for $65, but those are sold out now. Check with NoDak Spud for those under "A2 lowers". I have bunches of them, and they are great lowers with Type III hardcoat anodizing.
If you're getting a 6.5 Grendel barrel/bolt combo from a reputable manufacturer, you can get some good deals on a complete 5.56 BCG or just the bolt carrier, cam pin, firing pin, and firing pin retaining pin. I usually get my bolt carriers from Bravo Company USA, as they are the cleanest and best-made Milspec M16 weight Bolt Carriers I have found so far. I get a stripped carrier for $51, and build it up with Milspec gas keys and permanent thread-locking compound after checking fit/function with the gas tube alignment. You can get a rifle-length gas system kit with the gas key, gas tube, roll pin, & extra gas rings for $23 from Midway IIRC.
You can shop around Brownell's and Midway and find good deals on extension tubes ($18), recoil springs ($10 for 3-pack), and I would recommend balancing your buffer with your gas system length/barrel length/and bullet weights. I like the Spike's Tactical Tungsten powder buffer, ST-T2, for carbine stocks. They are priced about the same or less than other heavy buffers.
If you're getting a match trigger, just order the Lower Parts Kit without the trigger mechanism and pistol grip for about $30. You don't need a crappy hammer or trigger anyway, or you can get the full kit and polish your trigger/hammer sear engagement surfaces, and use reduced power springs to cut your trigger weight down and make the quality of the pull smooth.
There are some bare-bones free-float tubes available for less than $50 bucks if you shop around, and YHM low-pro gas blocks are $25. Everyone usually uses grips and stocks of their preference, so there are literally tons of A2 stocks and grips floating around for a song. I've got boxes of A2 grips that I will probably never use.
As long as the heart of your system is a quality bolt and barrel, with good springs, functional mags, and the rest is properly-fitted and gas system is balanced, you'll be fine with AR's. I prefer to Cerakote them before assembling, which adds service life, protects from any corrosion, abrasion, humidity, skin salts, etc., and looks amazing.
I had written this up before on the old forum with all the links to these fine sources of quality parts on a dime. Let me know if there is interest in me doing this again, as I'm all about saving money so I can spend it on ammo and gas to the range.
LRRPF52
What you guys think about J&T? - StoneTower - 05-12-2011
"If you're getting a match trigger, just order the Lower Parts Kit without the trigger mechanism and pistol grip for about $30. You don't need a crappy hammer or trigger anyway, or you can get the full kit and polish your trigger/hammer sear engagement surfaces, and use reduced power springs to cut your trigger weight down and make the quality of the pull smooth."
Where are you getting the LPK less trigger group for $30. Is it a quality kit? I have used Armalite kits but I paid almost $60 for my AR10 LPK less trigger and I had to hunt down some trigger pins to go with the Timney trigger I installed.
Thanks,
David
What you guys think about J&T? - warped - 05-12-2011
Bob at Templar said to give him a call, custom from him is the same price as standards, because Bob does whatever the customers want, while giving good advice.
You just can't get better than that in a customer service area, equal maybe, never better.
919-757-7085
BTW I was really WRONG and ashamed of myself for saying Ricky was second place last year.
HE WON 1st PLACE!
What you guys think about J&T? - LRRPF52 - 05-12-2011
I order DPMS lower parts kits from Brownell's, and there is an option to get the LPK without the trigger mechanism, which I don't need anyway. I really like using the JP Triggers and Geissele triggers for 2-stage. It's hard to beat an EDM wire cut sear, and even the low-price Geissele blows away all of the RRA, Armalite, Knight's, JARD, Timney, and other 2-stage triggers I've felt.
I haven't had any issues with the numerous LPK's I've ordered through B-store. Back about 10 years ago, I did get some kits that were occasionally missing a part or two, but I don't recall the vendor or source then. So far, the DPMS kits I've ordered over the past few years have all been 100%, but I will remind everyone that true Milspec lower parts are tested in some way for imperfections after the MIM process. Usually, this only applies to you if you're running an AR10 suppressed, due to the increased bolt velocity and carrier mass, causing damage to the bolt catch itself. I've seen it happen, and apparently it happened to Armalite during the SASS trials, even though they have a better gas system for suppressor use on their SASS rifles.
Yes, you can't get around the high price for the Armalite AR10 LPK(-), but Armalite has very good parts.
LRRPF52
What you guys think about J&T? - warped - 05-12-2011
Yeah the three strikes of the AR10 and derivatives, good thing Colt listened, that is why the 901 runs so well and why they guard it so vehemently.
What you guys think about J&T? - MrSurgicalPrecision - 05-13-2011
Since we're talking about budget parts I'll throw my two cents in. I have not seen a better trigger that was even close in price than the Mega Tactical single stage. It's adjustable for creep and overtravel and only runs $86. It uses a stock hammer and hammer spring, but I replace the hammer spring with a reduced power unit from JP. I prefer a crisp single stage trigger myself being more of a bolt action shooter.
http://http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=1852
What you guys think about J&T? - LRRPF52 - 05-13-2011
Mad Max,
I just looked at that trigger on Rainier's site ( I order from them often ), and it was hard to tell what allows that trigger to adjust for over-travel and creep. Is it like a JP with 2 set screws? If so, I think I might try one for my next running gun. That Mega trigger combined with the DPMS LPK(-) sounds like the most affordable LPK plus match trigger right now, but you will need a hammer in addition to those two items. Thanks for the heads up on those.
I use 2-stage for precision guns, and single stage for carbines that will usually be shot from standing or moving positions. I didn't realize that Mega's trigger was adjustable. When I install the JP's, I polish the sear surfaces of the trigger and hammer using my well-seasoned degree in hand-held, high-speed, rotary tool applications...
Just make sure you don't take too much material off your trigger bar in the rear when you fit it to the selector...I had a friend that did it once...LRRPF52
What you guys think about J&T? - warped - 05-13-2011
Geez man, get a decent buffer for your work bench!
Use the proper polishing compound and you can also really polish the tail of the bolt and nothing tends to stick afterward.
I also started using Frog Lube and it really is great, plus you can eat it, it smells like those wintergreen candies we got as kids.
What you guys think about J&T? - Greyghost1 - 05-14-2011
Norsk,
Back to your original post on 24" bull Grendel by J&T. I have shot one that another person this forum built. It was very accurate, definitely sub 1 moa. For the uses you described J&T could be a good value. I have a 20" J&T H bar barrel. I set it up for an all around rifle range, hunting, and fending off zombies. It has stock trigger, 6 pos stock, and low power optics. I still get groups well under 1/2" at 50 yards when I am consistent in my hold. The current set up isn't really optimized for bench work. In my case the trigger, stock, and optics are more the limiting factor on accuracy. My home range is limited to 50 yards so long range bench shooting wasn't my goal. My complete upper kit was the same price as a satern barrel by itself. For a lot of shooters J&T is a good starting point. I have had mine since 2007 and after around 1000 rounds I have been very happy. No regrets with J&T.
Good Luck,
Jeff
What you guys think about J&T? - MrSurgicalPrecision - 05-14-2011
LRRPF52 Wrote:Mad Max,
I just looked at that trigger on Rainier's site ( I order from them often ), and it was hard to tell what allows that trigger to adjust for over-travel and creep. Is it like a JP with 2 set screws? If so, I think I might try one for my next running gun. That Mega trigger combined with the DPMS LPK(-) sounds like the most affordable LPK plus match trigger right now, but you will need a hammer in addition to those two items. Thanks for the heads up on those.
I use 2-stage for precision guns, and single stage for carbines that will usually be shot from standing or moving positions. I didn't realize that Mega's trigger was adjustable. When I install the JP's, I polish the sear surfaces of the trigger and hammer using my well-seasoned degree in hand-held, high-speed, rotary tool applications...
LRRPF52
It has a set screw fore and aft that screws down against the bottom of the receiver and adjusts it's position. The front screw adjusts overtravel, the rear adjusts the amount of creep. I've got mine set to the minimum that will still allow it to function properly and it's far better than the Chip McCormick drop in my buddy just put in his Grendel. But like I said I don't like 2 stage triggers.
I can probably email you the installation instructions which shows it better than I can explain it if you're interested.
EDIT: I forgot about this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81mpvsDGHSg
What you guys think about J&T? - VASCAR2 - 05-14-2011
I've got a 16" J&T and I'm very satisfied. I wanted a short range carbine with more power than 5.56. If I wear out the Shaw barrel I might upgrade to higher quality barrel but for now the barrel shoots better than I can hold it. My J&T with C Products mags hasn't missed a beat and it handles jut like my 5.56 duty rifle which was what I wanted.
What you guys think about J&T? - Norsk - 05-14-2011
Thanks for all the info guys. Not sure what I was thinking but I ordered 2 uppers one from J&T and one from Precision Firearms. As for the one I was building its on hold until I think of something to do with it I sure don't need three grendels. The J&T should be fine for my wife and if the precision shoots as good as they say I'll be happy with mine. I'll give a full report on how they shoot once I get my hands on them.
What you guys think about J&T? - Bicyclewrench - 05-14-2011
I like mine. I doubt it'll shoot with my AA Overwatch, but I was building a light weight practical hunting rifle and I've got less in the whole rifle than I do in just my AA upper. Been getting about 3" groups at 100 with an Eotech. More time at the range with my rimfires would probably tighten that up.
What you guys think about J&T? - C-2-1-7 - 05-15-2011
Thats OK warped, it happens
What you guys think about J&T? - pinzgauer - 05-16-2011
I've been extremely pleased with my JT Bull Grendel w free-float handguard, etc. 1/2 MOA with good loads even with so-so trigger & glass.
One nice thing about J&T is that you can upgrade when specifying your kit. Add in a decent trigger (JP, KAC, etc). Want to upgrade to LMT bolt carrier, you can do it.
The bull grendel is a wilson air gauged barrel, and if the rest of them shoot like mine it's a decent setup.
Bro has an A2'ish JT grendel that is shooting 1 MOA or better (shaw rack grade barrel). Son has a 5.56 M4gery from JT. And friends built several others.
Net-net: AA licensed, Good value, seems to dodge some of the problems folks see with M1, etc. Have not had any chamber issues, etc, and fired brass measures pretty much identical to my AA JH forum barrel. JT stripped Uppers & Lowers are quite good for other builds if you want a basic forged receiver.
Good folks to deal with, they are good about responding to email/forum/phone calls. Will happily tell you specifics (alloy, barrel mfg, etc) on their components. (Unlike many other kit houses)
If I upgraded anything, I'd add in the JP speed trigger. Or an LMT 2 stage. and possibly the LMT full auto bolt carrier if it was a defense rifle.