Serbia adopting 6.5 Grendel as main military cartridge

[NugginFutz]

I had training. I still think it sucks.

LOL - He didn't say you'd like it. Just that it would be a non-issue in terms of functionality.

[stanc]

LOL - He didn't say you'd like it. Just that it would be a non-issue in terms of functionality.

Heh, heh. Just because it's possible to adapt to poor ergonomics, doesn't make it a good idea to intentionally design poor ergonomics.

[bj139]

These are more ergonomic.

https://www.deltateamtactical.com/TacFir..._6149.html

[LRRPF52]

Anybody have anymore pics without having to start an account with AK Forums?

[stanc]

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[stanc]

Out of curiousity I've been trying to find out what weight bullets they are using, but no joy. None of the articles seem to mention it.

I got lucky, and happened to find the following info on two FMJ loads:

Hardened Steel core (Ball?) -- 6.0g (~93gr) ---- 880mps (~2885 fps)
Tungsten Carbide core AP ---- 7.3g (~113gr) --- 800mps (~2625 fps)

Looks like the velocities were measured @ 10 meters from the muzzle?

See chart @ 2:05 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY7EuSYIrEM

[video=youtube;PY7EuSYIrEM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY7EuSYIrEM[/video]

[Sticks]

That rifle looks like a breeding gone bad.

Part SCAR, Part M4, Part AK47. Not sure where natural genetic mutations kick in. But hey, if it shoots...

[bj139]

I don't think the U.S. will adopt a cartridge based on a Russian cartridge.

It looks like 6.8SPC is the closest we will get.

[VASCAR2]

I’m kind of curious about the magazine which appears to hinge in the same fashion as a standard AK-47 mag. Curious if this mag would work in the VEPR 6.5 Grendel. Curious if a civilian version of the Zastava will ever be imported into the US.

Would the Zastava magazine work with AR-47 from PSA that accepts AK mags. The AR-47 in 6.5 Grendel might be an interesting combination if the Zastava 6.5 Grendel is a quality mag.

[stanc]

I’m kind of curious about the magazine which appears to hinge in the same fashion as a standard AK-47 mag. Curious if this mag would work in the VEPR 6.5 Grendel. Would the Zastava magazine work with AR-47 from PSA that accepts AK mags.

The Zastava M17 receiver is basically AK, and I don't see the Serb military fielding new 7.62x39 mags that aren't interchangeable with their existing 7.62x39 mags.
So, I think it's very likely that the 6.5 G mags would fit any rifle that accepts standard AK 7.62x39 mags.

[BluntForceTrauma]

I got lucky, and happened to find the following info on two FMJ loads:

Hardened Steel core (Ball?) -- 6.0g (~93gr) ---- 880mps (~2885 fps)
Tungsten Carbide core AP ---- 7.3g (~113gr) --- 800mps (~2625 fps)

Stan, fantastic sleuthing! Just the info I wanted.

[stanc]

Stan, fantastic sleuthing! Just the info I wanted.

My pleasure, John. I find it interesting that they seem to have abandoned the original design premise of 6.5 Grendel -- using a relatively heavy, high BC, 123gr projectile at modest MV -- in favor of a very light, modest BC, 93gr bullet at rather high velocity.

[BluntForceTrauma]

If they were smart, they took advantage of the length of bullet nose offered them and made a very sleek nose on their bullets, despite the weight being lighter. That would give the best of both worlds: Hardened steel or tungsten cores that retain as much velocity as possible at range.

[stanc]

If they were smart, they took advantage of the length of bullet nose offered them and made a very sleek nose on their bullets, despite the weight being lighter.

I'm sure they made the nose as long and sleek as the cartridge OAL permits.
The bullet ogive probably has the same shape as that of the Prvi 110gr FMJ.*

*The bullet can be seen (albeit not very well, due to image size) 1:59-2:03 in the video above.


FYI: I'm not absolutely certain, but it looks like the velocity figures above may be for 20" barrel.
I got that from comparing video Grendel and 7.62x39 velocities to the 24" data on Prvi website.

[CavityBackBullets]

Interesting that they find a shorter, lighter, faster, lower BC bullet more suited to military/police use.

[stanc]

Interesting that they find a shorter, lighter, faster, lower BC bullet more suited to military/police use.

Heh, heh. I have no doubt you find that very ironic and amusing.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Interesting that they find a shorter, lighter, faster, lower BC bullet more suited to military/police use.

Robert, the right solution is the right solution, although I don't know if going shorter than, oh, 1.25" is necessary. And, as you know, the nose needs to be the very best hybrid Von Karman ogive they can muster.

But you are essentially correct, and I was proposing a lighter solution from 2014 and your favorite LRRPF52 from 2013, or earlier, and Sneaky here from when he first joined in 2009.

Anyway, gonna be interesting to follow what the Serbs are doing.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Stan, looks like the ogive in the PPU 110 FMJ is a rather unimaginative standard tangent ogive. I'm not really expecting anything advanced from the Serbs here, but once you create the correct bullet die, it doesn't take any more energy to swage it optimally as opposed to what they've "always done."

I tend to agree with you that those figures are from a 20" barrel. To get those speeds from a 16" at about 50,000 psi or less, they'd have to do some serious load development research.

[stanc]

Robert, the right solution is the right solution, although I don't know if going shorter than, oh, 1.25" is necessary.

It remains to be seen if the 93-grain bullet OAL is actually shorter than, say, the PPU 110-grain FMJ.
Cannelure-to-tip length is almost certainly unchanged, but it's possible that the base is shortened.
Think similar to the difference between the 7N22 (below, left) and 7N24 projectiles (below, right).

And, as you know, the nose needs to be the very best hybrid Von Karman ogive they can muster.

Um, you're conflating how you think it should be, with how the Serbian army thinks it should be.