Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform?

[Dcommoncents]

This subject has come up before on this forum a few times since I’ve been a member. The conversation gave me an incentive to conduct a simple nonscientific test comparing a 16” 6.5 Grendel AR-15 to a 5.56 AR-15. I have almost two identical rifles, one in 6.5 Grendel and one in 5.56/223. I know the OP mentioned a pistol caliber 6.5 Grendel compared to a 5.56 pistol.

From my 35 years in LE and after conducting this test my recommendation is either will work. The emphasis should be on training/practice and testing your equipment to know it’s capabilities. In a self defense context I think 200 round reliabilty is acceptable.

I put more value on training and tactics over a particular cartridge especially with rifle/carbine/pistols in rifle calibers. Once I was authorized to use an AR-15 in LE I normally carried aluminum mil spec mags loaded to 28 rounds. If there was any indication a high risk deadly incident was remotely possible I moved my AR-15 from the trunk to the passenger compartment for quick access. If I had time I exited the car with my AR-15 with at least one or two 30 round mags in my back pocket.

Today many Officers have purchased rifle rated ballistic armor in plate carriers with spare mags/ammo attached. If a situation arises the Officers gear up and are more prepared.

This is my personal opinion so take it for what it’s worth, I’d rather be well trained to where I am capable of putting a rifle caliber bullet in my target accurately than a specific caliber. My agency issued bonded core 55 grain JSP Federal TRU (Tactical Urban Defense) for a duty cartridge. My agency has M-16 A-1’s, 16” AR-15’s and M-4 carbines in use. I haven’t run the ballistic but I’d be surprised if this round would not prove effective out to 100 yards out of a 10.5”-12.5” 5.56 pistol.

I put more faith in awareness of surroundings, mental state and preparedness to the difference between a 6.5 Grendel and a AR-15 in 5.56. I can make either work if given enough time and effort. My physical ability today is a handicap for me do to age and retirement.

I’d have no hesitation using my 16” 6.5 Grendel with factory 123 grain A-Max as a LE weapon or a self defense weapon. Most LE encounters with rifles/carbine are at close range usually within 50 yards and rarely beyond 100 yards. In a self defense situation you have to be able to articulate your life or someone else's life is in danger and might prove difficult if your at 100 yards. In actual every day life the the likelihood of shooting in self defense at 100 yards plus is going to rare, plausible but rare. Which ever weapon you decide to use please become familar enough with the weapon to ensure it is reliable and you can use it effectively.

I have numerous rifles and pistols but for convenience and effectiveness I have 16” Tavor that I normally use as a travel companion. I also have a pistol on my person with two spare mags.

Here is a link to the test I mentioned. I’ve lost the photos on photobucket but I’ll try to replace the photos in this thread.


http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...el-vs-5-56

Thanks for the detailed response and link. I agree, very well put. I have zero military or law enforcement experience but have adopted the same mentality you discuss. I live life aware and prepared, but not in a state of paranoia or fear. I've just accepted that bad things can and do happen, and believe that simply accepting that reality and being mentally prepared to react appropriately (including realistic mental rehearsal - not self aggrandizing hero fantasies) is critical. Realistically training is probably the next important step in my view, and of course buying the coolest gear isn't going to overcome training deficiencies.

Anyone who is worried about being in a Vegas Shooter type situation, you are either screwed or 99% chance of survival (PLEASE don't let this thread derail into that discussion - I brought it up as an example). Screwed if the shooter has skill. Survive by keeping your cool and getting off the "X". Cover and concealment, know the difference, and always have an exit strategy or two in mind.

I'm not an alarmist, but truth be told the vegas situation did make me rethink my prior belief that my 9mm carry pistol would be adequate to engage an attacker in any situation there is a realistic possibility I could encounter. Obviously if I had been in that concert an ar pistol wouldn't be available to me, nor would it be responsible to return fire in that situation, but I can think of others where it might be. As just one example, I live in Pittsburgh where we have long, traffic laden tunnels. It is not unthinkable that some whacko could use a traffic situation like that to create an ambush from which I could not escape and would want more than a compact handgun to deal with. Likely? It wouldn't seem so, but none of these things seem likely until they happen. Indeed, a similar attack was attempted in I believe Houston, and many have predicted that coordinated attacks are going to become an increasingly common tactic. Again, I don't have any hero fantasies, but I want to be equipped to defend myself, my family, and other innocents if I can do so responsibly and without putting myself in danger from first responders.

I also agree that a 5.56/.223 chambered pistol is going to be rather effective within 100 yards, especially with the right projectile selection, but one chambered in 6.5 G, or 300 BO is going to be more so. It sounds like a 6.5 G can be plenty reliable for that use, but like any other system I will have to test the gun and any magazines to make sure. I especially make a point of that for self-defense guns. I ran a couple hundred rounds of different makes of self defense ammo and jhp through my s&w shield without a hiccup before I felt comfortable carrying it. Just a good common sense practice.

[Dcommoncents]

Ever take a look at the FN five seven? Several of my friends have one and I was very impressed the times I got to send lead down range.

If you want an AR platform for a pistol, then I would go with the 300 blk; I believe being able to reach high velocity in a very short barrel (and still cycle properly) was one of the design goals.

My father in law actually owns one and it is a fun and interesting gun that I've been able to shoot well. Despite the extra reach I imagine that high velocity round provides, it seems a little under powered. I think the P90's longer barrel would make that cartridge a more viable choice, but at that point I'd probably just use my Tavor.

[StoneHendge]

Sounds like someone is getting ready for Nov 4. I plan on having the SP101 inside the waistband and the M&P 360CT on the ankle as an added measure. But I'm not terribly worried since the antiFa are spineless and only seem to agitate when they know their targets will be unarmed.

[Dcommoncents]

Sounds like someone is getting ready for Nov 4. I plan on having the SP101 inside the waistband and the M&P 360CT on the ankle as an added measure. But I'm not terribly worried since the antiFa are spineless and only seem to agitate when they know their targets will be unarmed.

Forgive me, but what's the significance of November 4?

[StoneHendge]

Nov 4 is when antiFa will allegedly be starting their revolution:

https://refusefascism.org/2017/08/06/thi...e-must-go/

[just_john]

Thanks for the detailed response and link. I agree, very well put. I have zero military or law enforcement experience but have adopted the same mentality you discuss. I live life aware and prepared, but not in a state of paranoia or fear. I've just accepted that bad things can and do happen, and believe that simply accepting that reality and being mentally prepared to react appropriately (including realistic mental rehearsal - not self aggrandizing hero fantasies) is critical. Realistically training is probably the next important step in my view, and of course buying the coolest gear isn't going to overcome training deficiencies.



I'm not an alarmist, but truth be told the vegas situation did make me rethink my prior belief that my 9mm carry pistol would be adequate to engage an attacker in any situation there is a realistic possibility I could encounter. Obviously if I had been in that concert an ar pistol wouldn't be available to me, nor would it be responsible to return fire in that situation, but I can think of others where it might be. As just one example, I live in Pittsburgh where we have long, traffic laden tunnels. It is not unthinkable that some whacko could use a traffic situation like that to create an ambush from which I could not escape and would want more than a compact handgun to deal with. Likely? It wouldn't seem so, but none of these things seem likely until they happen. Indeed, a similar attack was attempted in I believe Houston, and many have predicted that coordinated attacks are going to become an increasingly common tactic. Again, I don't have any hero fantasies, but I want to be equipped to defend myself, my family, and other innocents if I can do so responsibly and without putting myself in danger from first responders.

I also agree that a 5.56/.223 chambered pistol is going to be rather effective within 100 yards, especially with the right projectile selection, but one chambered in 6.5 G, or 300 BO is going to be more so. It sounds like a 6.5 G can be plenty reliable for that use, but like any other system I will have to test the gun and any magazines to make sure. I especially make a point of that for self-defense guns. I ran a couple hundred rounds of different makes of self defense ammo and jhp through my s&w shield without a hiccup before I felt comfortable carrying it. Just a good common sense practice.

While on the surface, it would seem that being prepared to respond if caught in a Vegas scenario would be great. But I would suggest that you re-thiink that a bit. Had someone there been able to return fire ( how many yards away and at what angle of fire and ... ) and engaged in doing so.

Then the locally deputized guys show up. Considering the mayhem in progress, how do they differentiate the good guys from the bad guys? Initially they can't. Their information is "active shooter" somewhere! So, to them, it may be you! This would just make an already bad day even worse, and probably more so for your family when two of the good guys show up at your front door with flowers and bad news for your survivors.

While there are many who have the training and the kind of "equipment" to do so under those circumstances, there are few of us who have the skills to successfully respond to a Vegas scenario without actually making a bad situation even worse. Something about unintended consequences?

[Sticks]

.... As just one example, I live in Pittsburgh where we have long, traffic laden tunnels. It is not unthinkable that some whacko could use a traffic situation like that to create an ambush from which I could not escape and would want more than a compact handgun to deal with.... .

You actually have a better chance in a tunnel full of cars than in the open.

Same theory applies. Keep your head. All manner of cover and concealment in that situation. Exits are limited, but hard cover to wait the incident out are plentiful. If the shooter starts walking up the line of cars shooting, then you are right back to your 9mm being the weapon of choice to defend yourself if the need arises. Hard to point and aim a AR pistol from under a car. Little on the tall side.

[yoni]

This thread has a lot of issues in it. But I will give my 2 cents worth.

Just for back ground I spent 25 years chasing terrorist in Israel, and hold the ranking of Master Sniper.

I was born and raised in the USA and grew up reading Jeff Cooper, so for a few years I was the only guy with a 1911. I shot people with it and when I did my job it did it's job for the most part.

I had one incident where I got jumped by a terrorist with a hatchet and we were so close I could bring my rifle to bear. So I grabbed onto him and pulled my 1911 and put 8 rounds into his heart and still he fought on I ended up beating him with the pistol until I was added by one of my guys who put a 5.56 round in the guys head.

I was later forced to go to using a Hi Power and a year later had a similar thing happen to me, but due to having 15 rounds on tap was able to solve the situation myself.

These incidents gave birth to my theory about pistol shooting. As long as it is 9mm or larger what matters is "economics of motion", which means two things how fast are my split times and more important how many rounds can I shoot before I have to reload.

I do not like small pistols with limited number of rounds.

Regarding the FN P90, we tested it in Israel, it sucked for shooting people.

Lastly now down to rifles.

As soon as I get some time I am going to build an AR 6.5 Grendal because it fits what I think is a great rifle for going to the range to keep up my skill set as a sniper. Would I carry a 6.5 for real world use, why not as long as it functions. Do I see the need for it in my life as a civilian for self defense?
Nope.

I have a Tavor, that is as short as a SBR but can travel state to state. If I wanted something shorter to fit in a back pack, I would get a 11.5" AR pistol ans put a LAW folder on it and call it a day.

If you shoot someone as a civilian at long range, it will bite you big time. Why did you feel the need to shoot someone at 300 meters, you could have taken cover etc etc etc.

Regarding Vegas, if he did in fact build shooting platforms back away from the windows and had muslin curtains. The from the ground I can promise you I could take the bad guy out. That is with wars in my background and more sniper missions than I will put out here. Besides you think at a concert they will let you in with your backpack rifle?

I hope this helps.

[Dcommoncents]

I guess I derailed my own thread a little here, but the resulting conversation has been interesting.

I agree with the sentiments express about the tactical necessity of keeping an ar pistol handy - i.e., there would likely be opportunities to retreat or use a pistol if the distance closes - and lack the expertise to add much other than to say that I do not believe that an ar pistol of any caliber would have been a good or available answer to the vegas situation. And as a lawyer, I certainly appreciate the potential legal ramifications of long range self defense.

At the end of the day, I'm really just looking for something to fill the role of truck gun, which could be fulfilled by any number of rifles I own, but I like the flexibility of an Ar configured as a pistol which allows me to keep it loaded and transport or carry it using my ccp with fewer legal complications. As stonehenge astutely mentioned, I'm also looking for an excuse to build a gun that isn't like anything I own!

[LRRPF52]

This subject has come up before on this forum a few times since I’ve been a member. The conversation gave me an incentive to conduct a simple nonscientific test comparing a 16” 6.5 Grendel AR-15 to a 5.56 AR-15. I have almost two identical rifles, one in 6.5 Grendel and one in 5.56/223. I know the OP mentioned a pistol caliber 6.5 Grendel compared to a 5.56 pistol.

From my 35 years in LE and after conducting this test my recommendation is either will work. The emphasis should be on training/practice and testing your equipment to know it’s capabilities. In a self defense context I think 200 round reliabilty is acceptable.

I put more value on training and tactics over a particular cartridge especially with rifle/carbine/pistols in rifle calibers. Once I was authorized to use an AR-15 in LE I normally carried aluminum mil spec mags loaded to 28 rounds. If there was any indication a high risk deadly incident was remotely possible I moved my AR-15 from the trunk to the passenger compartment for quick access. If I had time I exited the car with my AR-15 with at least one or two 30 round mags in my back pocket.

Today many Officers have purchased rifle rated ballistic armor in plate carriers with spare mags/ammo attached. If a situation arises the Officers gear up and are more prepared.

This is my personal opinion so take it for what it’s worth, I’d rather be well trained to where I am capable of putting a rifle caliber bullet in my target accurately than a specific caliber. My agency issued bonded core 55 grain JSP Federal TRU (Tactical Urban Defense) for a duty cartridge. My agency has M-16 A-1’s, 16” AR-15’s and M-4 carbines in use. I haven’t run the ballistic but I’d be surprised if this round would not prove effective out to 100 yards out of a 10.5”-12.5” 5.56 pistol.

I put more faith in awareness of surroundings, mental state and preparedness to the difference between a 6.5 Grendel and a AR-15 in 5.56. I can make either work if given enough time and effort. My physical ability today is a handicap for me do to age and retirement.

I’d have no hesitation using my 16” 6.5 Grendel with factory 123 grain A-Max as a LE weapon or a self defense weapon. Most LE encounters with rifles/carbine are at close range usually within 50 yards and rarely beyond 100 yards. In a self defense situation you have to be able to articulate your life or someone else's life is in danger and might prove difficult if your at 100 yards. In actual every day life the the likelihood of shooting in self defense at 100 yards plus is going to rare, plausible but rare. Which ever weapon you decide to use please become familar enough with the weapon to ensure it is reliable and you can use it effectively.

I have numerous rifles and pistols but for convenience and effectiveness I have 16” Tavor that I normally use as a travel companion. I also have a pistol on my person with two spare mags.

Here is a link to the test I mentioned. I’ve lost the photos on photobucket but I’ll try to replace the photos in this thread.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...el-vs-5-56

I updated the pictures in this test and the photos should now be visible. I lost the actual pictures when photobucket quit allowing links to forums. I still had the targets but not the pictures showing the misses on the cardboard where the plates were stapled.

This is an excellent post. What I will add is that no matter what weapon/ammunition/magazine/optics/illumination/carry combination you are looking at, you need to personally screen and then proof that system for yourself.

I don't care if it is the most highly-rated, ultra-reliable pistol or carbine from the most well-recommended manufacturer in the world.

You need to know personally that your system works with the mags and ammo that you feed it.

A good recommendation from Kyle Lamb and other trainers was to take your mags and run them through your carbine in some courses of fire.

If any of the mags had an issue, cull them from your inventory (he would smash them, no time to mess with fixing mags).

I have been apprehensive about reaching for one of my 6.5 Grendel carbines over the years because I simply have way more trigger time and experience with the 5.56 blasters, dating back to the 1980s.

Even with the amount of trigger time I have gained with 6.5 Grendel, the round count does not compare well with 5.56, and 5.56 magazines have literally 60 years of development, production, deployment, and improvement-something that is still continuing with 5.56 mags to this day.

6.5 Grendel has 14 years of magazine development, production, and end-user experience.

My recent experience with my LaRue Stealth 2.0 Grendel really impacted how I look at the gun though, because it runs so smoothly and in the happy pocket of AR15 cyclic rate, that I feel much more confident in it than even my personal builds.

I've had 2 malfunctions with different 6.5 Grendel builds of mine. The first was my original 16" build in an MGI upper with no M4 ramps, shooting the old Prvi Partisan 123gr Soft Point, which was notoriously bad ammo for the AR15. The first round from bolt hold open load did not go fully into battery, but after a half-retract on the charge handle, it did, and fired, extracted, fed all rounds.

The other malfunction I had was with my Lilja 17.6" build with an experimental, pre-production 17rd Elander magazine that Bill A. sent me. Same type of malf, bolt lock feed, FTFeed, nosedive, damaged the Hornady AMAX tip. That one surprised me because that gun had run flawlessly up until that point, but I've never had a problem with it since. Those are the 2 malfunctions that stand out to me over an 8 year period with thousands of rounds between many different Grendels.

Over that same period of time, my BCM 14.5" pinned MLGS carbine has never hiccuped, but I've seen a lot of home-builds from people choke that have come to my courses. Reasons range from incorrectly installed gas blocks to use of Frog Lube.

I will say that if my LaRue Stealth 2.0 had a 11.5"-12.5" barrel with a suppressor, I wouldn't hesitate to reach for it for work in the house, provided I'm able to proof it through at least 500rds.

I'm working on a 12" Grendel pistol build right now as well, with my can in jail.

11.5" 5.56 is no joke within 200yds, and more than adequate for close quarters. 10.5" with good ammo is a known killer since the early 1960s, and we have way better ammo selection nowadays.

Where 6.5 Grendel leaves 5.56 behind is in the ubiquity department for use as an HD and hunting set-up, which also penetrates barriers much better than both 5.56 and 7.62x39.

[bj139]

I agree. My home defense weapon is an AR pistol in 5.56 with a 7.5" barrel. It should be more than adequate at 30 feet, not so much at 1000 yards. I hope I never have to use it.

[Double Naught Spy]

The AR platform is made to feed 223 size cartridges.

Anything else would probably be less reliable.

This would suggest that any deviation from the original design would make the gun less reliable as well given that the deviation isn't part of the original design. Fortunately, many designs such as the AR15 allow for considerable variation, often with the replacement of appropriate parts to make it just as reliable as the original. The notion of original design is fraught with design intent implications and those are often meaningless to the grand scheme of what happens in the field and real world.

[murfvol]

Good stuff Yoni.

[StoneHendge]

Good stuff Yoni.

+1. And near the beginning of the thread I said I was searching for a reason to buy a 300 BLK Tavor in FDE. Well, that in my gold Excursion along with a 556 conversion kit and the G20 in the door pocket along with a 40 S&W barrel would pretty much be the ultimate SHTF combo (since 556 and 40 would be among the easiest to find after TEOTWAWKI)

[murfvol]

Sounds like an ideal setup StoneHendge! It's practical, portable, and durable.

[The Profit Joseph Sith]

Good thread I wanted to reply to some comments but apparently 13'000+ characters is to much :p thanks for everyone's input though I was glad some people posted some mag info. And special thanks to vascar2, yoni, SH, and OF COURSE LRRPF52

[Dcommoncents]

Good thread I wanted to reply to some comments but apparently 13'000+ characters is to much :p thanks for everyone's input though I was glad some people posted some mag info. And special thanks to vascar2, yoni, SH, and OF COURSE LRRPF52

Yes, I appreciate everyone's responses, both on the original topic and the philosophical aspects. I have been a member of various forums on various topics ranging from cars to guns and have found this forum to have one of the most civil, thoughtful and well-informed group of contributors I have ever encountered. I'm glad to be part of the Horde and to have this resource at my disposal!

[Dcommoncents]

What do you know, the next thread I looked at has this handy caliber comparison chart prepared by LRRPF52 which nicely sums up why I favor 6.5G for the pistol build over 5.56. http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...ison-Graph

[Dcommoncents]

So, based upon the comments in this thread and what I've read in others about 65G performance out of short barrels, I've decided to go ahead with this project. Unfortunately, short 65G barrels seem to be rare and expensive. I did come across this 11" complete upper from AA http://www.shopalexanderarms.com/AR-15_U...Upper.html but I only want the barrel, which is not listed on their website. So I just called AA and was informed by customer service that AA will not sell the 11" barrel for that upper separately. The customer service representative could not explain why and just said it was policy. Strange, huh?

Since I've been pleased with the Bear Creek complete upper I already own, and don't want to spend a fortune on this pistol, I might just get another complete BCA upper (shortest they sell is 16") and have the barrel cut down and threaded.

[bj139]

DC,
Sounds like a good plan. A 7.5" 300BLK pistol barrel and an upper receiver should be arriving here today .
It was $60 at Midway for the barrel and $50 for the receiver. Should be fun to play with.