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Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - Dcommoncents - 10-27-2017
I'm a new comer to the Grendel world and at present only have one 18" barreled AR15 upper chambered in 6.5 Grendel. I have probably only put 80 or so rounds through the rifle at the range, but am already thoroughly impressed with the capabilities of this cartridge. I think I have the bug.
Anyway, I am planning to build an AR pistol with something like a 12.5" barrel and a shortened/folding buffer system that I can keep in my truck or throw in a back pack if need be. The purpose would be two-fold: 1) I've come to realize that the 9mm s&w shield I daily carry may not be enough gun in the world we live in today; and 2) I want something with more punch than a handgun but compact enough to bring camping/hiking. The performance of a .223/5.56 out of such a short barrel is obviously less than impressive, so I'm considering alternative chamberings.
Every gun I own fills a niche in my systems and I try to stick to just a handful of chamberings to maximize ammo compatibility - so far I have managed to keep it to 5.56, 9mm, .40s&w, .380, and of course 6.5 Grendel. Thus, while 300 blk or even 6.8 spc are obvious candidates for my planned pistol, I would like to chamber it in 6.5 Grendel. My only concern (and the reason for this now long-winded post), is that I don't have enough experience with 6.5 Grendel yet to feel confident that it will feed with sufficient reliability in a gun that I would be betting my life on if ever used other than at the range.
For those of you with a larger sample size shooting 6.5 Grendel, do you think a 6.5 Grendel pistol fed with the best magazines (Alexander Arms to my understanding) will be reliable enough for that philosophy of use? Thanks in advance for any insight.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - bj139 - 10-27-2017
The AR platform is made to feed 223 size cartridges.
Anything else would probably be less reliable.
The 6.5 Grendel shines as a long range cartridge.
I only have shot 223, Grendel and 300BLK from an AR.
The 223 has been impressively reliable in feeding compared to the Grendel.
I have not shot enough 300 BLK to know but it has been reliable also from the little I have shot.
I have been thinkng of buying a 7.5" 300 BLK barrel to make a pistol upper since I consider the little cartridge to be a pistol caliber anyway.
Just compare it to a 357 or 44 mag.
I already have a 7.5" 223 upper and it is fun to shoot.
I heard people complain about muzzle blast but I don't feel or hear anything unusual. A 30-06 from a 22" barrel has much more blast.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - BluntForceTrauma - 10-27-2017
I don't think there's a way of answering this without million-round testing from Aberdeen or some other government agency.
My anecdotal experience is that my 65Gs do not jam, which includes mag dumps with Wolf 65G steel-case.
My opinion is that 65G will suffer, or not, similar failure to feed rates as 556 depending on build and magazine quality, etc.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - StoneHendge - 10-27-2017
To be honest, for what your looking for I will be a heretic and risk banishment from the Horde! Glock 20. 15+1 rounds of 10mm smack. 180 grains at 1250 fps. I have been doing a little personal test and I have over 1000 rounds through mine and have not cleaned it since it was new. Nothing. Not the barrel. Not the action. Had one FTE a few hundred rounds ago with S&B ammo which is a little under average power for what you'd carry. Case Simply didn't get fully pulled out of chamber - could have been a light load. Plus, you can get a Lone Wolf 40 S&W barrel for it for around $100. 2 minute swap. Then of course there is the Glock 40 MOS - 6" barrel with integrated mount for a red dot sight. Was a little too much for what I was looking for, but maybe not for you. Plus once you master it, you'd be amazed at how well you handle your 9 or 40. Makes 9mm feel like a 22lr pistol.
But then again, maybe your just looking for an excuse to build an AR pistol
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming! :p
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - bj139 - 10-27-2017
SH,
I thought you were talking about an AR upper.
Are you really talking about a Glock pistol?
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - Dcommoncents - 10-27-2017
StoneHendge Wrote:But then again, maybe your just looking for an excuse to build an AR pistol
Yes, partly this. But more importantly, and I should have mentioned this initially, a big part of my goal for this pistol is to have something with a longer effective range. I know 10mm is a beastly cartridge at handgun distances, but while I haven't looked at the ballistics tables I'm sure it's performance rapidly degrades with distance. I don't consider myself to be particularly recoil sensitive, but I also question how effective I would be with a 10mm handgun.
So I don't think a glock 20 would work for me, though I do appreciate the creative suggestion. In fact, I've toyed around with the idea of a 10mm carbine for home defense purposes but am sticking with my tavor for now.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - howl - 10-27-2017
Lemme see here. I have had one failure in .223 with Tula. I have had zero failures with 6.5G. I have of course shot more 223/5.56.
I'd say your only issue with the 6.5G for equivalent reliability is magazines. There are no magazines for the 6.5G that I would call high capacity. A 60 round drum or even coupling a couple 40 rounders together gives the other cartridges an advantage. Having 80 reliable rounds on board is more reliability than 50.
Also, http://www.mgpcustoms.com/358_MGP.html
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - StoneHendge - 10-27-2017
Dcommoncents Wrote:Yes, partly this. But more importantly, and I should have mentioned this initially, a big part of my goal for this pistol is to have something with a longer effective range. I know 10mm is a beastly cartridge at handgun distances, but while I haven't looked at the ballistics tables I'm sure it's performance rapidly degrades with distance. I don't consider myself to be particularly recoil sensitive, but I also question how effective I would be with a 10mm handgun.
So I don't think a glock 20 would work for me, though I do appreciate the creative suggestion. In fact, I've toyed around with the idea of a 10mm carbine for home defense purposes but am sticking with my tavor for now.
Yeah - I was just stirring the pot a little. I mastered my SP101 357 snubbie long before I got my G20. Lots of afternoons at the range mixing light 38 loads with full bore 357 loads and spinning the cylinder. Or even three 357 loads and two empty cylinders with a spin just to train myself not to flinch. But in a truck I can have my G20 chambered and in reach. And on a trail I can have it chambered and on my hip if I have a pack, or concealed in a sticky in the small of my back if I don't in order to not scare the visitors. My #1 woods concern is a kitty kat. My second is coming across a moose or bear with a calf/cub. I actually experienced the former - my dog saw them first - 10 yards away from us just off the trail deep in National Wilderness. I had a full pack on my back and I seriously almost pooed myself when mom was looking right at me with shoulders as high as the top of my head slowly chewing her grass. That was not long after this erstwhile Jersey boy had moved to CO and I bought my first handgun a week later (a G27). If she had charged, I don't think I would have had 2 seconds. At least now I know if I was in a standoff with anything before a charge, I could slowly draw and be chambered and hopefully be lucky enough to have a center of mass shot miss enough to shatter a shoulder on a bear/moose. And in a 2 legged defense situation, I really don't think most courts are going to appreciate a shot over 10 yards even if it is a mob of antiFa agitators with sticks and Molotov cocktails. And at 10 yards or under, a few pops from a 10mm will knock them on their backs no matter how many Starbucks espresso shots they're jacked up on...... Of course the mere sight of an AR pistol might make them melt and save on legal fees
I have a 300 BLK carbine as my home defense. I've been searching for a reason to get a Tavor in 300 BLK and that would be it! In FDE, of course. But too many other toys to justify on my end first lol.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - VASCAR2 - 10-28-2017
This subject has come up before on this forum a few times since I’ve been a member. The conversation gave me an incentive to conduct a simple nonscientific test comparing a 16” 6.5 Grendel AR-15 to a 5.56 AR-15. I have almost two identical rifles, one in 6.5 Grendel and one in 5.56/223. I know the OP mentioned a pistol caliber 6.5 Grendel compared to a 5.56 pistol.
From my 35 years in LE and after conducting this test my recommendation is either will work. The emphasis should be on training/practice and testing your equipment to know it’s capabilities. In a self defense context I think 200 round reliabilty is acceptable.
I put more value on training and tactics over a particular cartridge especially with rifle/carbine/pistols in rifle calibers. Once I was authorized to use an AR-15 in LE I normally carried aluminum mil spec mags loaded to 28 rounds. If there was any indication a high risk deadly incident was remotely possible I moved my AR-15 from the trunk to the passenger compartment for quick access. If I had time I exited the car with my AR-15 with at least one or two 30 round mags in my back pocket.
Today many Officers have purchased rifle rated ballistic armor in plate carriers with spare mags/ammo attached. If a situation arises the Officers gear up and are more prepared.
This is my personal opinion so take it for what it’s worth, I’d rather be well trained to where I am capable of putting a rifle caliber bullet in my target accurately than a specific caliber. My agency issued bonded core 55 grain JSP Federal TRU (Tactical Urban Defense) for a duty cartridge. My agency has M-16 A-1’s, 16” AR-15’s and M-4 carbines in use. I haven’t run the ballistic but I’d be surprised if this round would not prove effective out to 100 yards out of a 10.5”-12.5” 5.56 pistol.
I put more faith in awareness of surroundings, mental state and preparedness to the difference between a 6.5 Grendel and a AR-15 in 5.56. I can make either work if given enough time and effort. My physical ability today is a handicap for me do to age and retirement.
I’d have no hesitation using my 16” 6.5 Grendel with factory 123 grain A-Max as a LE weapon or a self defense weapon. Most LE encounters with rifles/carbine are at close range usually within 50 yards and rarely beyond 100 yards. In a self defense situation you have to be able to articulate your life or someone else's life is in danger and might prove difficult if your at 100 yards. In actual every day life the the likelihood of shooting in self defense at 100 yards plus is going to rare, plausible but rare. Which ever weapon you decide to use please become familar enough with the weapon to ensure it is reliable and you can use it effectively.
I have numerous rifles and pistols but for convenience and effectiveness I have 16” Tavor that I normally use as a travel companion. I also have a pistol on my person with two spare mags.
Here is a link to the test I mentioned. I’ve lost the photos on photobucket but I’ll try to replace the photos in this thread.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?12193-6-5-Grendel-vs-5-56
I updated the pictures in this test and the photos should now be visible. I lost the actual pictures when photobucket quit allowing links to forums. I still had the targets but not the pictures showing the misses on the cardboard where the plates were stapled.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - Kilco - 10-28-2017
VASCAR2 Wrote:This subject has come up before on this forum a few times since Ive been a member. The conversation gave me an incentive to conduct a simple nonscientific test comparing a 16 6.5 Grendel AR-15 to a 5.56 AR-15. I have almost two identical rifles, one in 6.5 Grendel and one in 5.56/223. I know the OP mentioned a pistol caliber 6.5 Grendel compared to a 5.56 pistol.
From my 35 years in LE and after conducting this test my recommendation is either will work. The emphasis should be on training/practice and testing your equipment to know its capabilities. In a self defense context I think 200 round reliabilty is acceptable.
I put more value on training and tactics over a particular cartridge especially with rifle/carbine/pistols in rifle calibers. Once I was authorized to use an AR-15 in LE I normally carried aluminum mil spec mags loaded to 28 rounds. If there was any indication a high risk deadly incident was remotely possible I moved my AR-15 from the trunk to the passenger compartment for quick access. If I had time I exited the car with my AR-15 with at least one or two 30 round mags in my back pocket.
Today many Officers have purchased rifle rated ballistic armor in plate carriers with spare mags/ammo attached. If a situation arises the Officers gear up and are more prepared.
This is my personal opinion so take it for what its worth, Id rather be well trained to where I am capable of putting a rifle caliber bullet in my target accurately than a specific caliber. My agency issued bonded core 55 grain JSP Federal TRU (Tactical Urban Defense) for a duty cartridge. My agency has M-16 A-1s, 16 AR-15s and M-4 carbines in use. I havent run the ballistic but Id be surprised if this round would not prove effective out to 100 yards out of a 10.5-12.5 5.56 pistol.
I put more faith in awareness of surroundings, mental state and preparedness to the difference between a 6.5 Grendel and a AR-15 in 5.56. I can make either work if given enough time and effort. My physical ability today is a handicap for me do to age and retirement.
Id have no hesitation using my 16 6.5 Grendel with factory 123 grain A-Max as a LE weapon or a self defense weapon. Most LE encounters with rifles/carbine are at close range usually within 50 yards and rarely beyond 100 yards. In a self defense situation you have to be able to articulate your life or someone else's life is in danger and might prove difficult if your at 100 yards. In actual every day life the the likelihood of shooting in self defense at 100 yards plus is going to rare, plausible but rare. Which ever weapon you decide to use please become familar enough with the weapon to ensure it is reliable and you can use it effectively.
I have numerous rifles and pistols but for convenience and effectiveness I have 16 Tavor that I normally use as a travel companion. I also have a pistol on my person with two spare mags.
Here is a link to the test I mentioned. Ive lost the photos on photobucket but Ill try to replace the photos in this thread.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?12193-6-5-Grendel-vs-5-56
We need a like button.
Very very very well put.
In most these kinds of situations, unless body armor/barrier penetration is an issue, just about any centerfire rifle will do the trick... rifle/shooter marriage far outweighs rifle/cartridge.
FWIW I have over 1200 rounds through my 16" ILGS Grendel without a hiccup.. the only thing that gives me pause is the life of the mags.. and I completely understand everyone has very different mileage, but this was my experience..
ASC/AR-Stoner: in my small (2 mags) same these were junk. Required bending of the fees lips to get best function l, and the steep shoulder of the Grendel would always rub aggressively against the front of the mags during feeding.. cheap though.
E-lander: I know I'll get crucified for this, but these Israeli made mags did not impress me either with my 2 mag sample (one 4 rounder and one 10 rounder). The four rounder was extremely difficult to load, even after sitting loaded for months and much use. Thier was so much tension that I could feel the sluggishness whenever I chambered a round. The 10 rounder came with my father's 18" AA upper, and under 200 rounds it literally came apart in the front where it is spot welds.
CPD: these were my favorite, at least the 10 round models. The 5 rounder only held 4. You could cram 5 in their but it would then require the bolt to be locked back to successfully insert the magazine. 10 rounder was great. Would hold all 10, loaded easy and fed smoothly, no destruction of the brass.
The 20 rounder I could only get to reliably hold 18, and after just a few loadings and uses it started to "bulge" and become difficult to insert in the mag well. Soon it was evident it was quite literally coming apart at the seams.
Again, this was just my experience with my limited samples.
When it comes to a semi-auto and defending my family, life or liberty, I am most anal retentive about my magazines, hence why there is a 99% chance in that scenario whatever cartridge I carried would use a PMAG.
I will say, the PRI and Barret 30 round 6.8 mags are almost as impressive as a PMAG to me...
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - bj139 - 10-28-2017
I can't understand how someone had zero failures but then is bending magazine feed lips to get them to function. What???
I don't understand. I guess it is just me.
There are many threads on this forum about people asking if anyone knows which magazines will function reliably with 6.5 Grendel.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - newb - 10-28-2017
Ever take a look at the FN five seven? Several of my friends have one and I was very impressed the times I got to send lead down range.
If you want an AR platform for a pistol, then I would go with the 300 blk; I believe being able to reach high velocity in a very short barrel (and still cycle properly) was one of the design goals.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - VASCAR2 - 10-28-2017
I had one ASC 24 round mag which failed to feed from the non ejection port side of the mag. I had the mag for a long time before actually using it. Once I got around to using the mag I encountered failure to feed. I compared the feed lips to ASC mags which functioned. The feed lips were lower on the faulty mag not letting the cartridge nose rise enough to catch the feed ramps. I used needle nose pliers to bend the feed lips on the faulty mags to match the functioning mags. The mag has not failed to feed since the modification.
This is the only mag I own where I remember a mag causing a feeding problem. Unfortunately all the manufactures have lemons get on the market which definitely hurts confidence. My limited experience with the E-Lander 24 and 17 round mags has been positive. The ten round E-Lander I have was very tight when new and I had one failure to feed with one 85 grain Sierra Varmint hand load. This was a fire formed 7.62X39 case I used to test the mag to see if I could get a failure. I could not duplicate the failure and I since regularly used this mag. My E-Lander mags really improve with use and are not any harder to load or unload than my other mags. I blamed this one failure to feed as much on the ammo as the new mag. I wouldn’t trust the mag hunting till I tested it and it has worked flawlessly ever since.
With proven mags and factory ammunition my 6.5 Grendel (2 16” and 1 20”
are very reliable, same to be said about my 5.56/223. I have also had issues with 5.56/223 mags especially during the AWB. One recurring issue with the 6.5 Grendel mags is the stated capacity. The original C Products and the ASC mags count a chambered round into the advertised mag capacity. My five round CP and ASC mags hold four rounds. People have modified the followers to accept the fifth round and occassionally a mag will accept five rounds because of size variations during manufacture. My ten round mags hold nine, my fifteen round mags hold fourteen and my twenty five round mags hold 24. I don’t own any C Products Defense mag so I don’t know if this applies to CPD. My Elander ten round mag holds ten and is reliable with ten rounds. My seventeen round mag holds seventeen and my twenty four round E-Lander holds twenty four rounds.
I’m not trying to convince anyone to use anything 6.5 Grendel I’m just relaying my experience. If a person feels better served by a 300 Blackout, it makes no difference to me. I suggest whatever you choose, use it enough to make sure it works and meets your parameters.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - Kilco - 10-28-2017
bj139 Wrote:I can't understand how someone had zero failures but then is bending magazine feed lips to get them to function. What???
I don't understand. I guess it is just me.
There are many threads on this forum about people asking if anyone knows which magazines will function reliably with 6.5 Grendel.
Absolutely zero failures. That doesnt mean the mags functioned as smooth as they could, and 1200 rounds is a relatively small sample to determine total reliability.
The ASC mags were the first I received with my Grendel.
I didn't have to go shoot the rifle to see there were issues with the magazines. Pretty sure a novice shooter would have determined they were of poor/cheap design. Also they were the only ones that required I, (and many others if you read those same threads you mention) needed to bend feed lips to improve function.
OP is asking about a "Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform". AR platform is semi-auto. Key component of semi-auto reliability is magazine function, longevity.
If I were to inquire about Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform, i want all the data, input, experience I can get, which is what I offered.
...yeeeesh.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - Drift - 10-28-2017
I too have a Shield as a carry piece. I too started to feel undergunned with it. I too built a Grendel pistol for the car-and also for my kids bugout back pack. Mostly because I have what? 7 Grendels. And have killed what ?200 hogs with the Gendel and never felt out numbered, no matter how big the sounder of hogs or under gunned no matter how big the hog. A Gendel AR pistol should allow you to dominate any pistol caliber handgun dispute. And the .223 and blackout are "near peers" at best.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - Sticks - 10-28-2017
I would have to agree with Vascar2 on this subject.
All of the barrel length options we can get (in any caliber), and their effectiveness is all well and good, but in all reality...In a SHTF/TEOTWAWKI/WROL/Zombie Apocalypse situation, if you need to fire a weapon at more than 50 yards, your tactics are flawed.
Anyone who is worried about being in a Vegas Shooter type situation, you are either screwed or 99% chance of survival (PLEASE don't let this thread derail into that discussion - I brought it up as an example). Screwed if the shooter has skill. Survive by keeping your cool and getting off the "X". Cover and concealment, know the difference, and always have an exit strategy or two in mind.
If you think you are going to stand off a mob, solo, again, your tactics are flawed.
I consider myself to be pistol effective from 0 to 30 yards, and rifle effective from 0 to 600 yards (first round hits - I have taken 3, two day training courses on the Carbine platform). If I have to either bug out, or get home - in reality I am just going to have my pistol, and stay the F away from high risk areas. It's smaller, lighter, and easily carried.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - AZHTfreak - 10-28-2017
Sticks Wrote:I would have to agree with Vascar2 on this subject.
All of the barrel length options we can get (in any caliber), and their effectiveness is all well and good, but in all reality...In a SHTF/TEOTWAWKI/WROL/Zombie Apocalypse situation, if you need to fire a weapon at more than 50 yards, your tactics are flawed.
Anyone who is worried about being in a Vegas Shooter type situation, you are either screwed or 99% chance of survival (PLEASE don't let this thread derail into that discussion - I brought it up as an example). Screwed if the shooter has skill. Survive by keeping your cool and getting off the "X". Cover and concealment, know the difference, and always have an exit strategy or two in mind.
If you think you are going to stand off a mob, solo, again, your tactics are flawed.
I consider myself to be pistol effective from 0 to 30 yards, and rifle effective from 0 to 600 yards (first round hits - I have taken 3, two day training courses on the Carbine platform). If I have to either bug out, or get home - in reality I am just going to have my pistol, and stay the F away from high risk areas. It's smaller, lighter, and easily carried.
Big +1...
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - murfvol - 10-29-2017
Great discussion.
1) Last weekend I was shooting my 18" Grendel while a buddy had his Tavor. The Tavor in 5.56 or 300BLK would be a great, but expensive truck gun. Super portable, and the trigger is fine.
2) I love the Glock 20. Never had a MechTech upper for mine though.
3) A Grendel pistol would be cool, but it seems the effective range would be ~100 yards due to sight radius, etc.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - Sticks - 10-29-2017
murfvol Wrote:3) A Grendel pistol would be cool, but it seems the effective range would be ~100 yards due to sight radius, etc.
No different than any other <16" rifle caliber pistol config. You are limited by your skill, and ballistics.
You would still be able to get out to 400+ with irons, and off a bench/fixed brace. Put an ACOG or a short tubed scope on there and it won't be an issue.
Bet-your-life reliability in a 6.5 Grendel AR15 platform? - diddlyv - 10-29-2017
40 50 80 rounds OMG we got a lot of rambo wannabees here. If you need that kind of firepower you must already be in the infantry and actually have much better weapons available than even the great Grendel