Hey Folks,
New to the horde and loving all the info available here. I've been an AR fan since 1983 when I was introduced to the M16A1 in Basic Training for the Army. I have recent;y gotten back into the AR world and have an Mforgery and a dedicated .22 lr upper. I am looking to get another upper in 6.5 Grendel (hence my involvement here) and am looking for direction. I want to hunt with it and don;t expect to be taking shots beyond 600 M, although the ability of the rifle to do it accurately would be fine (I don't trust myself yet for that distance). I like the ballistics of the Grendel and the fact that I can get bolt-gun accuracy out of a semi-auto platform. So, here are my questions:
1. What barrel length - I see that I can get them from 16" to 24" easily. I understand the longer the barrel, the better terminal ballistics I get with the cost of weight and ease of maneuvering.
2. What barrel weight - I understand that a bull barrel flexes less, cools better and is more accurate, but lugging a 24" bull barrel around in the brush hunting feral hogs doesn't sound like fun. Bench rest shooting would be another thing, but that is not the job for which I'm prepping.
3. What optic would you suggest - is 3-9x40 good enough for what I'm looking at doing? Again, I intend this for hunting out to 600M for hogs and deer in Texas.
4. Number of magazines and capacity - I see I can get them from 5 round up to 26 or so. I really don't see a need to go that large, so choice id probably between 5 and 10. What do you suggest and why?
I want this to be a working gun so to speak. I doesn't need to be high-dollar, but I want it to be reliable and the correct tool for the job.
I have used the search function and read as much as I feel I can take at this time. My budget will be $1000 to $1200 to include glass. I have the tools and skills to build the upper, but from what I've found so far I won't save much money unless I wait and hunt around a lot. I don't have the patience for that and am willing to spend a little more to buy it already assembled and warranted.
Again, everything I've read impresses me with this round and the fact that it is SAAMI now pretty much closed the deal for me. There are just too many choices out there and I don't have a lot of money to make mistakes.
All help is greatly appreciated,
John Gillaspy
Q # 1 and 2 An 18" barrel with rifle length gas system from my experience delivers the best compromise betwen weight,accuracy and velocity. I take it to 600 yards targets with first hit confidence and hunt with it regularly . Just my opinion.
Good Morning John and Welcome to the Horde: What follows is my personal preferences and I'm sure you'll get plenty of other opinions to keep you confused.
In the end it will be your decision based on what you think will work best for you. Good Luck!
#1 & #2- I like as light and as short of a barrel as I can get, staying within what would be an acceptable muzzle velocity.
I love 16" Spartan and 18" Spartan barrels offered by AA. These are double fluted and are very light.
The 16" has an integral flash hider built in so the actual rifled barrel is 14" long.
I went with the 18" Spartan barrel because it gives me the option to add different flash hiders, brakes or suppressers as I feel necessary.
As to flex and cooling, I have read in the past that a fluted barrel flexes less and the fluting allows the to cool faster.
So there are conflicting opinions as to which works better.
I decided to save the weight through shorter barrel length and fluting because, for me, it makes it much more handy when I'm carrying it, getting in and out of
vehicles, carrying it through woods and for follow-up shots especially when shooting hogs.
If you read in the hunting section, you will read several accounts of game taken with 16" and 18" barrels so I think the terminal effects are plenty within proper
distances.
#3- Once again, an optic is a very personal choice based on what works best for you. I always hesitate to make power range reccomendations because I have very good long
distance eye sight so what works for me, I've found through the years, doesn't neccesarily work for other people.
The 3-9 power range is always a great choice as it cover a wide range of possible scenarios.
I use a 1-4 as I can easily get out to 600 yards with the 4 power and I have the 1 power for close in stuff.
If you go with the 3-9 or any power range other than one with a 1 power in it, I would reccomend also mounting a true 1 power for close in work, especially when hunting
something as potentially dangerous as hogs.
I have a Leupold Mark 4 4.5-15x50 mounted on one of my uppers with a Burris Fastfire also mounted on the top rail in a 45 degree cant mount for close in work.
I would also reccomend a 50mm scope as opposed to a 40mm scope if you can afford it as it will let in more light when you really need it at dawn or dusk.
The same holds true for getting an illuminated retical if you can.
My 1-4 is a Vortex Viper PST and as I mentioned, my 4.5 - 15 is a Leupold but both these brands may be out of your budget based on the $1000 to $1200 to include glass
you mentioned.
#4- Between the 5 & 10 round magazines, I would reccomend the 10 round ones as they are both the same size( at least the ones I've seen) with just different springs to change
the capacity.
You may want to have some of the larger capacity ones though because I've gone through more than 10 shots when I've hunted hogs and came upon a large group.
Once again, I would want as much back-up as I could get when hunting something that can be dangerous.
By the way, there is a Hunter AA upper listed for sale in the classified section right now for $570.00( no it's not mine) so by your budget, that would give you $430.00- $630.00 to spend on the optic.
That upper doesn't fit all my choices but would work in your budget very well.
Good Luck and once again Welcome.
Lee
Hey infidel470, no fair because you can type faster than me! just kidding. Lee
Posts: 3,214
Threads: 215
Joined: Jun 2011
If you really want to hunt deer and wild pigs out to 600yards I would go with the 18 inch barrel. I would use the 25 round magazine if I were hunting wild pig's. Lot's of back up shots, why limit yourself if you don't need to. just load what you want. Optics are a individual choice, but for hunting I prefer the shepard scope but it would take you out of your price range. You can save quite a lot if you can build your own upper, but that's your choice.I would stick with Alexander Arm's uppers just for the fact Bill will make it right if something goes wrong.
Lee,
Thanks so much. I din't find the Hunter AA upper in the classified section, but I'm waiting on my tax return or Q4 2011 bonus, whichever gets here first so I'm really not able to purchase right now. If it is a really good deal I might be able to talk my way into it... That is the price range I've been looking at on the JT Distributing site, but I'd prefer an AA upper, just thought I wouldn't be able to afford it.
I really haven't worked with the 1-4x scopes. I can see where having the 1x as an option in brush, etc would be a real help. At this point I'm getting everything lined up so when I get the funds I can get the upper quickly before my wife changes her mind...
Again, thanks for the info. I really do appreciate it.
JG
jgillaspy: Here's the link. I think it's still available.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...ical-upper
Lee
I agree with the fellas, go with an 18" barrel, it's a good compromise for light weight fast handling and still be able to reach out at longer distance. I had a 16" and just switched to an 18" double fluted. The fluting saves weight and the 18" only added 1.5oz.
Optics is a tough one, my Grendel budget was about the same as yours, first I tried a Leupold for $300 but after reading a lot a recommendations from members of the Horde I went to the Vortex HS 2.5-10x44 for $300 and now I'm saving for the PST model which is a couple hundred dollars more. A lot of the guy seem to like more magnification but my primary purpose is light weight hunting rifle so I'm trying to keep the weight down.
There is a lot to choose from, take you time, define your needs and requirement and do the research. Good luck.
Thanks for all the good info. At this point I can't find a complete upper with an 18" barrel. AA has a 19.5" for almost $1000 and JT has a 20" for $545. Lee, I didn't find it because I was looking for an 18" barrel, sorry, my mistake.
Just a quick Google look puts the cost of building my own between JT and AA, using the AA 18" barrel. Any pieces and/or parts manufacturers I should stay away from when looking for the remaining parts (uppers, BCG, upper parts kits, etc)? Any I should choose over another, keeping in mind my intended purpose?
Thanks,
JG
JG: As far as the BCG, make sure you get a M16 BCG and not an AR15 one. There is a weight difference between the two and the extra weight of the M16 BCG helps the Grendel run smoother and seems to cause less problems.
Most of the other parts are personal preference based on what you like better.
If you read through and look at what other people have listed in the Photo and Build sections, it should give you a good idea what most people are using.
Good Luck.
Lee
leopard6.5 Wrote:JG: As far as the BCG, make sure you get a M16 BCG and not an AR15 one. There is a weight difference between the two and the extra weight of the M16 BCG helps the Grendel run smoother and seems to cause less problems.
Most of the other parts are personal preference based on what you like better.
If you read through and look at what other people have listed in the Photo and Build sections, it should give you a good idea what most people are using.
Good Luck.
Lee
Yup what he said, I would also add, get a heavy recoil buffer(T2) for the same reasons listed above. The Grendel with heavier bullets and more powder being burned creates more recoil. The heavier parts reduce felt recoil and improves cycling.
(1) On our old forum (before it got eaten) an engineer type showed pretty convincenly that for every inch of increase barrel length BETWEEN 10 and 14 inches you get an additonal 50fps. For every inch between 14 and 18 maybe an additional 25fps. and every inch after 20 inche maybe only 15fps increase. Most of us stay in the 18-20 inch range unless we plan to shoot waayy out there. (2) Barrel weight is dependant on how fast you shoot and how much you want to carry around. (3) Optics questions are harder. The Grendel is very accurate so good high power (read heavy and expensive) optics can be helpful when try and make use of the accuracy in your 16 or 18 inch barrel. I like 2-7 x or 3-9x. But I cant argue with people who want to strap Hubble sized scopes on a short light rifle. Good to have you on board
leopard6.5 Wrote:Hey infidel470, no fair because you can type faster than me! just kidding. Lee
Sorry, I also got up earlier LOL
jgillaspy Wrote:Thanks for all the good info. At this point I can't find a complete upper with an 18" barrel. AA has a 19.5" for almost $1000 and JT has a 20" for $545. Lee, I didn't find it because I was looking for an 18" barrel, sorry, my mistake.
Just a quick Google look puts the cost of building my own between JT and AA, using the AA 18" barrel. Any pieces and/or parts manufacturers I should stay away from when looking for the remaining parts (uppers, BCG, upper parts kits, etc)? Any I should choose over another, keeping in mind my intended purpose?
Thanks,
JG
JG if you decide to go with building an upper you will have a substantial saving for a quality equal and exceeding JT - it is simple as-replacing a barrel bolt combo on an AR 15 556 . Get the sturdy upper an good barrel 6.5G or 264 LBC up to you, look at sales ads ( Rainer arms had one IFIRC) , M16 BCG - 99$ at palmetto state armory and around 550-650$ you got your self a good platform an you will learn a lot from the build ( I can bet you will not stop with one ) and refine your criteria for the next tax return. At leas you will have an good hunting rifle - proudly made by YOU and invest in a good scope. This forum is great at helping each other and sharing knowledge. In case you have decided to go with a purchased upper - for the money you will not go wrong with AA. I don`t have any vested interest in any company or business - just my opinion, so far 3 builds: 20" sabre defence fluted, 18" Lothar Walther 6.5 CSS rimmed to 264 LBC and fitted with strait jacket system from teludyne tech, and 18" liberty fluted barrel all of them great rifles.
Thanks for listening. Vasko
hm2 clark Wrote:(1) On our old forum (before it got eaten) an engineer type showed pretty convincenly that for every inch of increase barrel length BETWEEN 10 and 14 inches you get an additonal 50fps. For every inch between 14 and 18 maybe an additional 25fps. and every inch after 20 inche maybe only 15fps increase. Most of us stay in the 18-20 inch range unless we plan to shoot waayy out there.
I haven't found that to be the case. I have a 20 inch barrel and the guys with 24 inchers get 100 to 120 fps higher than I do with the same load and 120/123 grain bullets. That's using AA2520 powder or ones in that range.
For example I get about 2520 fps with Hornady 123 AMaxes and 30.5 grains of AA2520. Guys with 24 inch barrel get about 2650 out of it. I get about 2510 fps with the Hornady factory 123 AMax loads and they claim 2650 on the box (24 inch barrel, I presume).
I don't have any experience on longer than 24 inches, or shorter than 20.
The Alexander Arms ballistic tables hold true for the rounds and barrel lengths I've tried, at least in muzzle velocity. http://alexanderarms.com/images/pdfs/gre...istics.pdf
RR
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