Forward assist delete. Good/bad?

[Jk2paintworx]

I am working on a LW build for Coyote hunting and it seems that all the LW upper receivers are loosing the weight by ditching the FWD assist and the dust cover. I like to have the fwd assist for quiet chambering and although I don't usually remember to close the dust cover I don't see how the weight it saves by loosing it amounts to much. Who makes the lightest stripped upper rec with both features in tact? Anyone know of a LW side charge left hand eject upper?

[Timmy2Knives]

Why don't you simply manually assist the carrier forward with your fingertip?

I have seen lightened uppers with FA intact, but they are always more expensive [and heavier] than the good old Anderson sport slick side upper. Besides, will your BCG even have FA cuts? Many lightweight carriers don't.

[Jk2paintworx]

Valid points Timmy

[Klem]

The weight of an upper receiver is almost nothing compared to the weight of the rest of the gun, especially the barrel and a full magazine. Shaving what amounts to a fraction of very little in the first place arguably does not justify the loss of function those two parts afford (in my mind anyway). Even if you've never used those parts previously someone else has. Reminds me of the old saying, 'Can't use it if you don't have it'. Each to their own of course.

There are previous threads on the Forum that tackle this question.

[Lastrites]

I don't need a FA on a hunting rig, that's what the depression is for on the side of the bcg but I do like having the dust cover for obvious reasons.

[LRRPF52]

I've noticed with a quality upper and BCG fit, when lubed properly, I don't need the FA and can have a more streamlined rifle.

For military use, the main place I can think of an appropriate use for it is when conducting final inspections in the ORP before going to the OBJ. As a key leader, I want to ensure every weapon has a round chambered that isn't temperature or humidity-sealed in a cold environment, but I also don't want everyone slamming BCGs home, which can be heard from quite a distance.

For hunting, I personally chamber a round as soon as I head into the hunting area out of camp or vehicles, at the vehicles, then maintain readiness for chance contact with game while keeping attentive muzzle and trigger discipline throughout until returning to the transportation method out of the area.

I can make a sound argument either way for or against FA, but I personally don't use it when present on the AR15 in a civilian setting. For those who climb into a stand and are worried about dropping a loaded rifle, you can argue in favor of a slow-close FA final chambering once in position. A well lubed rifle might close securely on you anyway with enough sound to alert the other animal life in your area, which will often trigger a warning to the intended prey. I recommend a 2-point quick-adjust sling carried on your back up the climb for this, with a round already chambered from before entering the hunting area. You have to carry the rifle up there anyway, so might as well be snug to your body. Most of the slings targeting hunters are Fudd slings that won't allow you to do this.

[Rockfish Dave]

I've had to use it once on a round the just barely didn't get the shoulder bumped back far enough in competition. I would have been sunk without the forward assist because it locked up the rifle solid.

To each their own, but I have used them. Hunting rifles no, there is always another day. Competition or home defense, yes.

[Kilco]

I can take FA or leave it, really doesn't matter to me...

I've never found it overly useful... as LRRPF52 stated, if I'm hunting, I rack a round in before I start my stalk or trek, and if I were the kind of guy who found that unsafe, I would probably go with a side charger before I relied on the FA.

That being said, all my ARs have a FA.. not by choice, it's just how the rifle/upper came.

I remember learning that in the early days of the AR15, certain rifles were requested without the FA, (air force maybe?) Because they were of the belief that if it didn't chamber, forcing the bolt into lockup with a live round was only making a bad situation worse.. just an interesting note..

[howl]

Parts weights: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...2061048809

The FA debate has to be decide per user, per how they use their weapon. I use the FA. It is easier to do the thing I use the FA for than to try to do it without. Options and adaptability are what make the AR so widely useful.

[LRRPF52]

I can take FA or leave it, really doesn't matter to me...

I've never found it overly useful... as LRRPF52 stated, if I'm hunting, I rack a round in before I start my stalk or trek, and if I were the kind of guy who found that unsafe, I would probably go with a side charger before I relied on the FA.

That being said, all my ARs have a FA.. not by choice, it's just how the rifle/upper came.

I remember learning that in the early days of the AR15, certain rifles were requested without the FA, (air force maybe?) Because they were of the belief that if it didn't chamber, forcing the bolt into lockup with a live round was only making a bad situation worse.. just an interesting note..

The AR10 and later AR15 were never designed with any type of FA in mind. The Air Force actually was the lead service initially in getting the AR15 type classified as a service rifle, within weeks of the Army's Ordnance Board declaring it totally unfit for military use since they were pimping the M14 in-house design. Dr. Carten literally had just killed any plans of the AR15 moving forward, only to receive orders to begin certification of it by USAF/Pentagon. The Army got drug into it after that, and they wanted some type of bolt closure assist device immediately, against the design recommendations of Stoner, who felt that a chrome chamber at least (and chrome bore preferably) were better allocations of the budget for the rifle unit costs. The Army Ordnance guys had been overridden on every decision leading up to the Forward Assist argument, after their bias towards the M14 and sabotaging of test protocols was discovered by McNamara and his "Whiz Kids". After being intellectually and professionally defeated time and again on any decision related to the AR15, Dr. Carten's engineers at Army Ordnance finally put up a last stand and chose to die on the hill of the Forward Assist device. The whole story is a funny, yet sad one.

The USAF insisted that their rifles would not have the FA device, and were type-classified M16. The Marines said they didn't need it, and felt that the design recommendations of Stoner were sound for their uses, but that they just wanted a new rifle quickly. The USAF, Army and Marines first received the 1st and 2nd variants of the AR15, the Colt Models RO601 and RO602 without any forward assist. The RO601 was known as the green rifle, as many had an olive green paint applied over the bakelite furniture. It had 1/14" rifling, the duckbill 3-prong flash hider, a more satin grey finish on the receivers, chromed BCG, Type A and B stocks, and other unique features. The RO602s were black, and had 1/12" rifling with the conical 3-prong flash hider, as well as most of the features from the 601. Neither had FA of any kind.





601s were used extensively by SAS in Borneo, Australian SAS in Vietnam, along with SF, and SEALs in Vietnam. SEALs actually used unit funds outside of DoD procurement chains and purchased many of them COTS very early in the life of the rifle.

The USAF GAU-5s used on the Son Tay Raid didn't have any Forward Assists. Son Tay Raiders were a Special Mission Unit hand-selected from various SF Groups Stateside for the POW rescue mission, trained extensively at a mock-up of the compound at Eglin, before deploying to SEA for execution of the mission.



The USAF Special Tactics Squadrons have used non-FA GAU-5A/A Commando variants for decades, before really transitioning over more to SOCOM-driven M4A1 variant carbine uppers.

[Kilco]

Great read!!!

So long story short, No, you don't need a FA. If it makes you feeln better then by all means, roll with it. But do not feel handicapped or "un-authentic" or cheap in the least by ditching that certain feature.

[Double Naught Spy]

Personally, I don't care how something was originally designed or designed for. All that matters to me is how it works now and if the features it has serve a purpose I want or need. As the gun in question will be for hunting coyotes, a forward assist can be very handy for quietly chambering a round when you haven't chambered one. I have used this for such on several occasions. For example, when having to clear a mis-sized reload and chamber a new round while hogs are less than 70 yards away.

Klem makes a good point. I won't suggest you will necessarily need it or need it often, but if you do need it, it is nice to have.

[Les]

Personally, I don't care how something was originally designed or designed for. All that matters to me is how it works now and if the features it has serve a purpose I want or need. As the gun in question will be for hunting coyotes, a forward assist can be very handy for quietly chambering a round when you haven't chambered one. I have used this for such on several occasions. For example, when having to clear a mis-sized reload and chamber a new round while hogs are less than 70 yards away.

Klem makes a good point. I won't suggest you will necessarily need it or need it often, but if you do need it, it is nice to have.

It has come in handy a few times on coyotes. I like it being there.

[NugginFutz]

One of my Grendels is a slick side, doorless bench beauty. In four years, it has never needed the FA, nor would I consider using it to close the bolt on an otherwise stubborn round (re: reasons mentioned above).

Having said that, all the rest of mine have a FA and, yes, they are quite nice for quietly chambering a round so as to avoid spooking Mr. Wile E. Coyote. Dang, but they have excellent hearing.

[Jk2paintworx]

Thanks for the great info guys.

[BluntForceTrauma]

I'm a minimalist, and don't like unnecessary clutter. My last two uppers had neither the FA nor the dust cover door. But I miss the dust cover, so I'll get that on future builds, but I still won't get a FA.

[AZBackcountry]

The forward assist allows for quiet chambering a round while hunting after brain farting and forgetting to at the truck. The other thing I find the forward assist is a nice thumb rest when carrying my ARs laying on my left arm with the barrel facing left.

The dust cover is an absolute must on a hunting rig. At the range, who cares about the cover.

[Timmy2Knives]

Still not getting what FA does that can't simply be done with a finger on the carrier. You *can* quietly chamber a round without FA. Am I missing something?

As for a dust cover on a hunting rifle, WHY? None of my other (non-armalite pattern) hunting rifles has ever had anything covering the action. Bolt guns, lever actions, and semi-auto hunting rifles of many makes and calibers- no dust covers of any kind. And no one complains either!

What do you guys do? Drag your rifles behind you on the ground while you hike in? I don't get it. In a war zone like the sand box or jungle, absolutely! But let's be real guys. That's not what this thread is about.

[Jk2paintworx]

I ordered a 2A Armament Balios upper without a fwd assist or a dust cover. Her how I made my decision. I have another ar that has both features and don't use either. It was comforting knowing that I had them but when it's comes right down to it I'm not sure why. Shooting supressed makes my action dirty fairly quickly and When my action needs cleaned it has a hard time chambeing a round unless I really let the charging handle fly. I don't like to do this when chambeing at the truck on the way to a coyote stand so I usually let it go from about half way back and this gets things close. From there I just pull back slightly and let it go again and it takes it home. If not I just push the carrier with my finger as Timmy mentioned.
As far as a dust cover goes I guess I just don't ever think about it. I often hunt in dust, snow.... And it's never been a issue since I usually have the rifle in my hands and not on the ground.

[Klem]

Still not getting what FA does that can't simply be done with a finger on the carrier. You *can* quietly chamber a round without FA. Am I missing something?

As for a dust cover on a hunting rifle, WHY? None of my other (non-armalite pattern) hunting rifles has ever had anything covering the action. Bolt guns, lever actions, and semi-auto hunting rifles of many makes and calibers- no dust covers of any kind. And no one complains either!

What do you guys do? Drag your rifles behind you on the ground while you hike in? I don't get it. In a war zone like the sand box or jungle, absolutely! But let's be real guys. That's not what this thread is about.

Timmy,
If you are convinced these thing are surplus to requirements then by all means get rid of them. One option is to remove the dust cover and the pin holding the thumb device on a normal upper. That'll save most of the weight you are concerned about. I challenge you though to get a mate to hand you the same gun with and without those parts (just tape them to the side to save time) while you are blindfolded and test if you can tell which one is lighter. If you can't then that'll be your conundrum for the day.

I think it is called Weber's Law. 'As the size of the stimulus increases, our ability to detect differences in it decreases', or something like that. The stimulus in this case is the weight of the whole gun, and the differences is with, and without the dust cover and FA. The heavier your gun, the less likely you will notice small changes in weight like those two items.

I sometimes work the action slightly when a round is up the spout. Not enough to eject but just to check that everything is working and not gummed up. Then finish off with thumb on FA for peace of mind (left handed). Especially after rain or water crossing. I don't spend days out in the weeds anymore so I guess it's more habit than necessary. I've loaded a few rounds quietly with the FA over the years, but not many. I think the dust cover is a good bit of kit. It keeps the right hand side fully camouflaged if you've painted it. And... it keeps the dust out.