Grendel LMG

[stanc]

I think the only real environment for the Grendel to gain traction in is amongst the Eastern European Countries that are aware of the Russian threat, while NATO leaves them out to dry. The biggest issue for them is that 5.56, 7.62 NATO, & 7.62x54R are the dominant cartridges in their small arms inventories, with 7.62x39 on its way out in many cases, along with 5.45x39 being displaced by 5.56 NATO. Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary have formed a new military alliance separate from NATO since they see the writing on the wall.

...the biggest and most important factor that would make the Grendel get noticed is if a modern LMG was chambered in it, and shown to provide the same downrange benefits as 7.62 GMPG's such as the PKM and MAG58, only from a much smaller package.

The adoption of the Grendel in Eastern Europe would already have a logistics framework in-place for brass and ammo with Lapua and PPU from the North and South, but weapons and magazines would be the main new items to be purchased. Selling points for budget-strapped countries:

* Longer barrel life
* One-caliber small arms system potential
* Longer weapon life with lower chamber pressures
* Inherent accuracy potential
* Existing framework for ammunition components
* Existing framework for barrel blanks in 6.5mm, a popular European bore
* Existing framework for projectiles

The most recent breath of fresh air is the observation by LRRPF52 that some East European countries might develop an interest in the cartridge. Let's help him pursue that notion and see where it takes us.

Okay. What can we do in that regard?

It looks to me like the only practical option to prove the concept is to Grendelize an RPD light machine gun, then put it up against a vz59 or PKM.

That would be rather expensive, though, so I'd suggest a more modest first step: Buy an RPD belt and see how well (or poorly) 6.5 Grendel rounds fit in it.

IMO, a second (or parallel) step would also seem prudent: Do comparison testing of 6.5 FMJ vs 7.62 FMJ. Comparing barrier penetration and other characteristics would confirm or refute the idea that a 6.5 LMG can deliver the desired performance.

If those steps produce acceptable results, then consideration can be given to acquiring and converting an RPD. (Perhaps a Grendel Guild project? Maybe DSArms could be convinced to help?)

Comments? Other proposals?

[video=youtube;dQiU_82HKpk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQiU_82HKpk[/video]

[RangerRick]

Here a link to a belt site:

http://www.blackrivermilitaria.com/belts.html

Scroll down to see the RPD belt.

Type Control-+ to zoom in and control-0 to reset the browser to normal size.

[stanc]

Thanks, Rick. Unfortunately, that site is apparently just informational. It says the items shown are not for sale.

But, DSArms lists two 50-rd belts with a drum for $24.95

http://www.dsarms.com/RPD-Drum-And-Belt-...nfo/RPDDB/

I haven't found anyplace where one can buy a single RPD belt, let alone a 10-link segment like I'd need here in Kalifornia.

[RangerRick]

Thanks, Rick. Unfortunately, that site is apparently just informational. It says the items shown are not for sale.

But, DSArms lists two 50-rd belts with a drum for $24.95

http://www.dsarms.com/RPD-Drum-And-Belt-...nfo/RPDDB/

I haven't found anyplace where one can buy a single RPD belt, let alone a 10-link segment like I'd need here in Kalifornia.

Yeah, that was just for comparison, but the pictures are crappy compared to the ds arms site. The sides of the link don't look terribly sloped so they may work with the Grendel. The part of the link that supports the neck will be very loose, though. Don't know if it will cause trouble or not.

[RangerRick]

But, DSArms lists two 50-rd belts with a drum for $24.95

http://www.dsarms.com/RPD-Drum-And-Belt-...nfo/RPDDB/

I haven't found anyplace where one can buy a single RPD belt, let alone a 10-link segment like I'd need here in Kalifornia.

All I saw was a 100 round belt and drum, but I ordered it. If you can't have that belt in CA I can cut off 10 rounds worth and send it to you.
If the belt works out OK, maybe we can take up a collection to get a semi-auto RPD ($2,100) and get them to make one of their barrels in 6.5 Grendel.

When I get the belt, I'll load it up with Grendel brass and see how it looks.

Rick

[stanc]

The sides of the link don't look terribly sloped so they may work with the Grendel.

Yeah, it might. Won't know until somebody actually tries it.

The part of the link that supports the neck will be very loose, though. Don't know if it will cause trouble or not.

It doesn't appear to contact the neck at all, so there shouldn't be any trouble in that aspect.



But, no matter. It's obvious from the complete lack of response to this thread that nobody is interested in advancing the idea of 6.5 Grendel for Eastern Europe, not even the person who originally proposed it, or the one who called it a "breath of fresh air" that we should help pursue.

[stanc]

All I saw was a 100 round belt and drum, but I ordered it.

The ad says 100-rd belt, but if you look carefully at the photo, there's a 50-rd belt in the drum and another 50-rd belt outside. I don't know if 100-rd belts were even made.

You can see in the video above there are two, 50-rd sections, with one falling off as he's shooting while walking, then the second section falls off when he's firing prone.

If you can't have that belt in CA I can cut off 10 rounds worth and send it to you.
If the belt works out OK, maybe we can take up a collection to get a semi-auto RPD ($2,100) and get them to make one of their barrels in 6.5 Grendel.

When I get the belt, I'll load it up with Grendel brass and see how it looks.

Oh, crap. Didn't know you were gonna do that. I should've made my previous post earlier today, before you spent the money. Rats!

[stanc]

Rick, PM sent.

[bwaites]

Some of us ARE interested, but just don't have a lot to contribute or time to post after we do everything else we are supposed to do! But...we are more than willing to contribute financially to advancement of the ideas!!

[JASmith]

OK, can you expand on the caption for post #6?

It looks like at least part of the belt is metal -- is there cloth there too?

There isn't much in the way of explanation ---

[stanc]

There's no cloth. Entire belt is metal. I'm not sure what else you wish to know?

[LRRPF52]

RPD drum, non-disintegrating metallic link. Those links look more difficult to manufacture than the NATO disintegrating links.

I'll tell you, right now, if I was in a gunner position, I would take a Grendel LMG over a SAW or M240 position without reservation, even not knowing the 500m plus terminal performance of even a mediocre 120gr FMJ. I have a feeling every gunner I've known would feel the same, as well as the current guys serving in that capacity.

[stanc]

RPD drum, non-disintegrating metallic link. Those links look more difficult to manufacture than the NATO disintegrating links.

As do the non-disintegrating links for the vz59 and PKM 7.62x54R machine guns. But, the RPD and its non-disintegrating link belts seem to be the only readily available option to demonstrate the viability of a 6.5 Grendel belt-fed LMG.

I'll tell you, right now, if I was in a gunner position, I would take a Grendel LMG over a SAW or M240 position without reservation, even not knowing the 500m plus terminal performance of even a mediocre 120gr FMJ.

Yeah, but if this idea is ever presented to the V4 militaries as a proposed replacement for 7.62x54R/7.62x51, don't you think it likely they'd want to see equal (or at least near-equal) terminal effects?

The Norma 120gr FMJ is certainly not the best 6.5 ball projectile that could be used in comparison tests with the 7.62 rounds, especially since standard 7.62x54R ball has a steel-core bullet. It's a pity the Swedish 6.5x55 steel-core AP bullets can't be had for such testing.

[bwaites]

The Norma 120gr FMJ is certainly not the best 6.5 ball projectile that could be used in comparison tests with the 7.62 rounds, especially since standard 7.62x54R ball has a steel-core bullet. It's a pity the Swedish 6.5x55 steel-core AP bullets can't be had for such testing.

They are too heavy for the Grendel anyway. To be fair, you need a 120'ish grain Grendel steel core bullet.

[stanc]

They are too heavy for the Grendel anyway.

Hmm. Perhaps you're thinking of the (139gr) lead-core Ball projectiles? IIRC, the steel-core AP bullet is only 113 grains.

To be fair, you need a 120'ish grain Grendel steel core bullet.

That'd be longer than a Lapua 144gr FMJ, and use up too much powder space.

I dunno what the optimum weight would be for a steel-core 6.5 bullet, but it looks to me like 110 grains would be about max.

[LRRPF52]

The Visegrad 4 have already been looking at new weapons systems. Polish Grom have been heavily influenced by a tight working relationship with certain elements in the US Spec Ops community, and the days of AK's and Vz58's are limited as these guys have felt the weight difference between an M4A1 w/ SOPMOD, and an AK with rails, light, Aimpoint, etc. The AK's days are numbered in Eastern Europe. It's already unacceptably front heavy in 1947 and 1953 forms, let alone with modern accessories attached. The Kreb's kits and Brugger & Thommet rails make an AK an even more ungainly beast of an Assault Rifle.

I don't see a need for them to load the same projectile for assault rifles and LMG's anyway, since they have had different end-user logistics packages for PKM's, MG3's, Vz's, SVD's, AK74's, MPi-AKS-74N's, Tantals, and so forth. A steel rod penetrator like the 7N6 or 7N10 would be great, with plenty of lead weight, and a thin projectile jacket. There is zero reason to have a strictly belt-fed LMG use the same projectiles as a mag-fed AR.

V4's biggest driver is Poland right now, and they have gained a lot of real-world operational experience in GWOT with their special forces and airborne units in Iraq and Afghanistan that the Russians simply have not. As I have worked with other nations in the region, I'm advocating them to either look at rebarreling existing rifles in inventory as the bores die, or adopting a new carbine entirely. No significant developments have been made as far as Light Machineguns are concerned since the Ultimax 100, and to a very limited extent, the KAC LMG. It gets overlooked too often, due to the distraction of trying to "fix" the Armalite/M4/Colt Commando...the one weapon system that isn't broken and is highly-favored by units that can choose whatever they want, literally, since no later than 1961, and is still the main go-to individual carbine in SAS, SBS, SF, NAVSPECWAR, Ranger Regiment, MARSOC, Force Recon, LRRPS/LRS, and a host of other countries' special ops where the M16 family is not their primary service rifle.

One of the biggest limitations is the lack of much development in the private sector regarding LMG's, because everyone wants to tinker with carbines and rifles, versus belt-fed. We'll see how it goes. I know what cartridge I would build around right now...

[LRRPF52]

The Baltics and Finland are long overdue for a modern LMG and Assault Rifle/Carbine with modern accessory integration architecture. Estonia is using a bunch of Galils the Israelis dumped on them, along with MG3's in 7.62 NATO. Finland is using the out-of-production Rk95 in 7.62x39, some ancient 7.62x39 mag-fed LMG and PKM's. Latvia and Lithuania have had AKS-74 variants, but the Lithuanian SF really like paratrooper SAW's with modernized kits in A-stan. The region is way overdue for some weapon upgrades for certain, especially when you compare the turn of the century from the late 1800's into the 1900's, and look at the quantum shifts in small arms development generated by Maxim, Browning, and Garand...metallic cartridges had already become dominant in the later 1800's in pistols, and were taking over rifle chamberings. With us at the year 2011, which corresponds to the century-ago 1911, I wonder how we're doing compared to that era. The cased telescoping tech is the biggest thing I think, if it can be successful, especially for dismounts. That would be our era's quantum leap.

This is why the modular weapon system approach is the best avenue to pursue, so operating system and feed can be upgraded as the technology advances. Either way, I think we'll actually see some developments happen in the next two decades, where the AK will be looked at like a Mauser or Mosin Nagant, but still be around of course. The AR will continue to influence designs as far as ergos and modularity are concerned, and accessory integration will be the trend most sought after by developed countries. Who knows if metallic cartridges will be in cutting-edge weapons...

[bwaites]

Hmm. Perhaps you're thinking of the (139gr) lead-core Ball projectiles? IIRC, the steel-core AP bullet is only 113 grains.

The 6.5 AP Projectiles I have came from 6.5x55 ammo, and they weighed considerably more than 113 grains before I machined them down. I couldn't get decent velocities with them, only about 2300 FPS, and they wouldn't penetrate 1/2" steel. I've machined them down to 108 grains by trimming the tails, so we'll see what happens.

[stanc]

The 6.5 AP Projectiles I have came from 6.5x55 ammo, and they weighed considerably more than 113 grains before I machined them down.

Interesting. Are you sure your bullets don't have tungsten cores?

I was going by info on the Swedish military ammo website for weight of the steel-core AP, so I can't verify the accuracy of the 113gr figure.

[LRRPF52]

A steel penetrator design based off the 7N6 or 7N10 would facilitate the same velocities as a standard FMJ. Just look at the 5.45x39 velocities for those at 2900 fps out of a 16.3" barrel, with projectile weights at 56gr. M4 with M855 62gr out of 14.5" barrel is 2900+ (not the British down-loaded weak ammo for the L85, but full-power M855). A 120gr 6.5 running quick with the narrow steel rod would smoke some steel. A 130gr LMG load could also be considered, with the right powder. Personally, I wouldn't want crazy penetration in AR's unless dealing with body armor, in which case you would need extreme velocity and light projectiles with small penetrators. Those would have limited effectiveness at distances past 400-500, whereas a standard weight projectile would break through mud, brick, and earthen barriers better out of an LMG. I don't want that for my door-kickers...too much blue on blue.

Either way, you're looking at no less than 4 different projectiles for the dismount force logistics structure: Standard AR load, Standard LMG, AP, Tracer. Notice we haven't even covered DM/Sniper, which is where this cartridge really shines as well, with the 123gr Scenar/SMK types.