Lilja barrels out of spec ?

[olde sarge]

I was just reading the 6.5 Grendel buy, sell or trade and see where Cory said the chambers of the Lilja barrels, apparently on group buy, were out of spec. I was ready to buy an AR740 barrel next week and I see that. What is the full story on these barrels? Do not want an out of spec barrel. Was the out of spec chamber disclosed before delivery? Can Lilja be trusted to deliver an in spec barrel? If you have any info on this please respond. Thanks, John

[haustinv]

I too would like to know about this Lilja out of spec situation. I purchased one of these barrels. I thought we could trust Lilja to make a true spec barrel. I haven't finished my build yet. Need to know what the situation is. Was the entire run affected or just certain styles? Info please/

[LR1955]

Guys:

There is a massive thread going over the Lilja barrel issue.

Do a search before opening this can of worms again.

LR1955

[PigOPs]

I can't find the thread...

[Sputnik]

You're not the only one. I can't either; and I searched. It is probably embedded in another thread where it get mentioned. I have to admit, at the time I was involved with "buyers remorse" from my Satern fiasco and was jealous of the Lilja folks. I guess it just "shows to go ya'" that anybody can have a bad day. Even Lilja.

[LR1955]

Guys:

I looked as well and can't find it so wonder what happened to it.

I need to let LRRP 52 state the exact issue but you are correct that the chambers were not reamed properly for the Grendel.

This thread is opened up for comments. I will not shut it down unless things get way out of hand.

LR55

[rocksoldier1]

Didn't mean for this to be first post but found a few threads that are relevant.


http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...g-Document


And a little bit in this for sale post.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...lete-Rifle



Thanks bwaites for helping with activation a week or so ago. Need a scope and barrel and I'll be shootin.

[LRRPF52]

Everyone who was part of the group buy should have received an email addressing this.

[Sputnik]

Everyone who was part of the group buy should have received an email addressing this.

That probably explains it, since the information wasn't shared to everyone. It has prospective buyers wondering what was the issue was specifically. I was not involved with the group buy, but since I was part of the Satern group buy, my interest was peaked about specific issues dealing with chamber measurements. I believe the interested parties are curious for more knowledge and information and not blasting an honest mistake or an organization that acknowledges concerns.

[cory]

The problem was the result of an out of spec reamer delivered to Lilja. Lilja has taken steps to correct the problem since the first run. Lilja has taken steps to switch to Manson reamers for future Grendel barrels.

The Grendel neck SAAMI spec is 0.300", the first run barrels are 0.296". The throats are long, but according to some calculations I've seen they're within the SAAMI spec, albeit on the ragged edge. Due to commits of a former horde member, there's speculation that this may have been intentional on the part of the reamer maker.

This has been worked off line with the members of the group buy. Dan Lilja has worked with the group buy members individually to make this right.

There's no reason and no plans to bring this online.

[cory]

Most Importantly The Barrels ARE SAFE to load and can shoot sub moa with the right handloads.

[LRRPF52]

Lilja has the correct reamer now, and is taking care of those who aren't happy.

I personally believe that the wrong reamer was deliberately sent to Lilja to cause harm, based on a number of facts. Throughout the process, Lilja hasn't blamed anyone else, and is doing their part to make sure it is corrected.

I have sent one of my barrels to be short chambered, which is a royal pain with the AR15 since the gas part is already cut, and the extension needs to be removed, breech cut short enough for the new reamer, chamber reamed with the correct reamer, extension torqued and timed correctly again with the gas port/Top Dead Center.

For those ordering now, there is no issue, and Lilja has the correct reamer with compound throat and .300" neck. I have received some barrels off the current production, and they have the compound throat.

If anyone is going to a barrel maker and asking for a SAAMI Grendel reamer to be used, get certifications in writing. Manson reamers are good to go if you ask for SAAMI Grendel. The SAAMI Grendel reamer design is based off of $11,000 in test reamers before settling on the final Grendel specifications.

Some reamer makers don't like cutting that reamer for whatever reasons, and will try to sell you something else entirely, calling it the same. It isn't only a problem with the Grendel either, but every other common caliber, and the 6.8 SPC. You ask for x, and get z, which is what was even done to Remington when they ordered the reamers for the SAAMI submission, a huge deal that had lasting repercussions for the market, since it was unsafe.

I recently heard similar complaints about .308 reamers from several sources across the country, on separate occasions. In every instance, an excessively long throat was the culprit, in rifles that were tasked with being very accurate for competition shooters and high end rifle builders. Lots of jump to the lands means the projectile has an opportunity to get off axis, and will exit the muzzle like a bad football throw, and will not group well at all.

The same party's name came up every time in all of these discussions, and it was the reamer maker, to include the botched/unsafe 6.8 SAAMI reamers with 80 degree neck-to-freebore angle and crazy long throat .308 reamers. A former forum member claimed to have the ear of this source, and bragged earlier in the year about the Lilja group buy getting a chamber they didn't ask for. I think that tells you what is going on.

https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?...1&t=636979

Here's another gem from the guy who claims to get his info directly from the reamer maker:

For years barrel manufactures have been silently dropping the Alexander Arms compound throat and moving to the Lapua throat. Many on the Grendel forum are already using the Grendel II without even knowing it because they are sold as 6.5 Grendels by multiple manufactures. You know that recent Lilja barrel buy on the 65grendel forum? Nice barrels guess what they are using the 6.5mmX47 throat. Not just them either.

Anyone suggesting using a Lapua throat in the Grendel is an utter retard, way outside of their competency. Then to openly incriminate yourself with fraud online and brag about it like you're a cool guy? Explain that to a judge and prosecutor.

[RAM2940]

Do the first run Lilja barrels have a grendel compound neck, or a tapered neck at .296 with a long throat. I did purchase one of the group buy barrels, but this was not in the email sent.

[LRRPF52]

Do the first run Lilja barrels have a grendel compound neck, or a tapered neck at .296 with a long throat. I did purchase one of the group buy barrels, but this was not in the email sent.

They have a .295" neck with a long freebore, parallel throat.

[cst]

I understand that the compound throat was to make it more reliable for different ammo.....but what does a long freebore accomplish? Im new to some of the finer details or reloading and chamber design..

[PigOPs]

They have a .295" neck with a long freebore, parallel throat.

In other words: .264 lbc. I wish we could get all of this crap behind us. I have too much money invested in the grendel platform to always have to question whether or not a part is what I'm expecting.

[olde sarge]

LRRPF52, thank you for your reply and the replies of all others. I didn't want to start trouble, just wanted to know the facts so I could purchase a barrel knowing the facts. I will ask for certification as you suggest and hope they will do it. Being new to AR type actions I have found all of this very confusing and a little overwhelming and am grateful to all that have answered my questions. I have read all I can find for the last week and there is so much on the web I am sure I have missed half of it. Thanks to you all I feel I can make pretty well informed purchases. John

[D.Davis]

I have had three kinds of trouble with mine. The last one, loading but not firing the round has me worried the most. The ones that do not fire( about 8 out of 25) I have to mortar out. Dave.

[LRRPF52]

In other words: .264 lbc. I wish we could get all of this crap behind us. I have too much money invested in the grendel platform to always have to question whether or not a part is what I'm expecting.

I believe that to be the intent of the reamer maker: deviate from the standard as much as possible, then offer their "solution", which is a total abortion. Notice how they are bragging about cheating and tricking people into thinking they are sending them the SAAMI reamer, then going on forums and boasting how customers aren't getting what they asked for, then saying their crappy chamber design will out-shoot the SAAMI chamber.

I'll post some groups up of the difference between total abortion chamber, and SAAMI chamber. This "gotcha" chamber is the first time I haven't been able to get factory Hornady 123gr into under 1" at 100yds, with just 3 round groups, from an internationally renowned, top-end barrel maker's pipe at that.

My ER Shaw SAAMI Grendel barrel will do that easily. Heck, it shoots tighter 5rd groups at 200yds than this ill-conceived chamber will shoot 3rd groups from a superb barrel at 100yds.

Here's 5 rounds, 107gr SMK, from a Lilja barrel shot at 100yds. Reamer used: 6.5 Grendel SAAMI from Manson reamers. This is what Lilja barrels are capable of, and why benchrest shooters love them, along with Krieger, Bartlein, Mike Rock.....



This is why when I heard that Lilja would be willing to do a group buy for us, I was interested. The barrels we got are literally the best looking pipes I've ever seen for an AR15. The rifling is smooth and flawless. The barrel extensions are the top of the market, made even better by Lilja with tumble-polishing them to take off the edges.

The gas ports are all cut exactly right, chamfered on the openings, and they are perfectly top dead center with the barrel extension indexing pin. The chambers are smooth, with no visible tooling marks.

Why the reamer maker would send that abortion of a reamer is beyond me, and quite infuriating if you think about it. If you're a rifle builder or barrel maker, be advised that there are entities out there who will go out of their way to stick you in the anus deep and hard, and it's not just with this caliber.

I'm seeing the same story over and over again with .223 Wylde, .308, .338 LM, and 6.8 SPC. Whoever you use for a reamer maker, make them follow the SAAMI diagram or your specs, and give the call-outs with an optical comparator, and have them sign off on it that it is to spec.

[Walter]

LRRPF You can pm your answer or post it here. I have two barrels form the group buy. Would they shoot better if they were sent back to Lilja or are they good to go?