Lilja Group Buy Barrel Accuracy

[cst]

what is it about the process that they claim improves accuracy? Maybe they put the gun back together better than it was before the application....getting that stuff in the bore cant be a good thing.

[cst]

Drifter...whats that rail underneath the sopmod?

[Drifter]

SOPMOD rail is from Battleline Industries.

[Adam Lilja]

what is it about the process that they claim improves accuracy? Maybe they put the gun back together better than it was before the application....getting that stuff in the bore cant be a good thing.

Talked to the old man about it and he said it's all snake oil. I think he means BS.

[NugginFutz]

what is it about the process that they claim improves accuracy? Maybe they put the gun back together better than it was before the application....getting that stuff in the bore cant be a good thing.

Hmm. (Paraphrased) "If getting that stuff in the barrel is wrong, I don't wanna be right!"

cst - Take a gander at the group Drifter posted. I didn't see anything there i would call detrimental. Regardless, it has not seemed to hurt the accuracy of that barrel.

[NugginFutz]

what is it about the process that they claim improves accuracy? Maybe they put the gun back together better than it was before the application....getting that stuff in the bore cant be a good thing.

Hmm. (Paraphrased) "If getting that stuff in the barrel is wrong, I don't wanna be right!"

cst - Take a gander at the group Drifter posted. I didn't see anything there i would call detrimental. Regardless, it has not seemed to hurt the accuracy of that barrel.

Talked to the old man about it and he said it's all snake oil. I think he means BS.

Snake oil. Which, if applied liberally, will relieve rheumatism, arthritis, gout, bunions, indigestion, heart burn, diarrhea, gall stones, kidney stones, baldness, blindness, rectal burning AND improve your group sizes.

[SIZE="1"]These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, and is not intended to diagnose, prevent or cure any diseases. [/SIZE]

[LRRPF52]

Nitriding is also known as ferritic nitrocarburiation, Melonite, black nitride, salt bath nitride, etc. is a metallurgy treatment that changes the surface of the steel to a much smoother and harder condition, without changing dimensional thickness. Glock has been using it on their slides for a long time now, as have other manufacturers. The Swiss national assault rifle uses nitrided barrels, and they are the highest quality of craftsmanship of any assault rifle design I have seen with the SIG550 series.

I have several AR15 barrels in .223 Wylde that have had the process done, and they are extremely hard. A common steel file will slide off the surface of the barrel, for example.

The Army tested barrels coated or treated with the following methods and issued a report in 1958 about their results:

* Hard Chrome lined
* Titanium Nitride lined
* Nickel Boron lined
* Salt bath nitrided

The excessive shock forces of continuous automatic fire were best dealt with by the hard chrome lining, so this is what was used on the M60, and later M16, then SAW.

Salt bath nitride treated barrels don't really foul that much at all, since there isn't much for them to allow residue to purchase to. There is more surface lubricity, so you might get lower velocities with a given load, but the ES and SD should be tighter. You might have a bit more room to play with in pushing the velocity, as the smoother surface allows a deeper primer jump of the projectile, and less resistance to engraving pressure.

The actual cost of the process is about $5 in optimally-sized batches. Barrel life can be extended by about 30%. With the Grendel, we have a throat and barrel life that is unusually long compared to other center-fire rifle cartridges.

[cst]

need some more guys to try it and report back...interesting process....but if its the cats meow then wouldnt the secret have hit the masses by now??

[LRRPF52]

It's not a secret. It's a well-known process dating back to before the 1950's among metallurgists in England.

There is also gaseous ferritic nitrocarburizing. If you want to shoot a lot of copper-washed steel ammunition from the East, it's great to use.

With every process, there are advantages and compromises. Nitriding needs to be done correctly with quality steel alloys, with the right amount of immersion and suspension time, otherwise you run into major problems. There is a quench, polish, quench process to several of the methods.

[Tedward]

There is a quench, polish, quench process to several of the methods.

This last part of your statement sounds just like the process JP uses on there Bolt Carriers that are SS. Do you know if that is what they do? Mt JP carrier after over 1,000 rounds leans up like new and you can't see any where at all. I do use a lot of oil as recommended but really wonder if that is there process.

Thanks for the informative info, another way to get a black barrel out of stainless and get a benefit!

[cst]

i hear you...i just think if their claims if improvement on accuracy are true then guys like GeorgeGardner et al would be having it done on all tactical and match rifles...he never offered that option on my M40A3... I am all for more accuracy..I would like to see more feedback like Drifter's..if its something worth while..Ill be all over it..Otherwise I will keep rattle canning my rigs..

[LRRPF52]

Yes, JP's black QPQ carrier is nitrided.

I think Drifter's barrel is accurate because it's a Lilja and Drifter knows how to shoot an AR15. The nitride process will make cleaning a pinch, and doesn't foul much.

I'm not sure it will make enough of a difference in accuracy to warrant it for that reason alone, although it should extend accuracy life and cut your SD and ES down.

With custom rifle shops that are using top-end barrels, there isn't much of a need to spend the additional time waiting for barrels to be shipped, treated, and installed since they are already turning out 1/4 MOA to 3/8 MOA rifles with very long accuracy life.

[Drifter]

The actual cost of the process is about $5 in optimally-sized batches. Barrel life can be extended by about 30%.

In comparison, if I would have sent my barrel to Adco to be bead-blasted and coated, the price would have been ~$75 with return shipping. My guess is that Adco's cost on the materials would have been similar to the black nitride process (~$5 or less). So for ~$25 more, I figured the supposed additional barrel life of the black nitride process would be worth the extra expense.

I think Drifter's barrel is accurate because it's a Lilja...

That's the bottom line, and the message I wanted to share by posting the group. I didn't intend for the discussion to be all about the barrel treatment. I opted for the process for the appearance and longevity, as I was ignorant of the accuracy and velocity claims.

The truth is that shooting a semi-auto gas-operated short-barreled short-gas-system short-buffer-system lightweight carbine and getting consistently good results is tricky business, and the odds of me repeating that group with any type of consistency are very very slim, regardless of how good the barrel is. It's much easier with a heavy bolt rifle, or even a softer-recoiling 223 AR-15 with rifle-length gas and buffer systems.

In other words, I don't expect groups like that to come often, but the barrel itself seems to be quite capable.

[Buster]

The truth is that shooting a semi-auto gas-operated short-barreled short-gas-system short-buffer-system lightweight carbine and getting consistently good results is tricky business, and the odds of me repeating that group with any type of consistency are very very slim, regardless of how good the barrel is. It's much easier with a heavy bolt rifle, or even a softer-recoiling 223 AR-15 with rifle-length gas and buffer systems.

In other words, I don't expect groups like that to come often, but the barrel itself seems to be quite capable.

But if you know your rifle is capable to out-shoot you, then so much the better.....that's my philosophy..

[sneaky one]

Drifter is all modest and all., yes he has a quality bbl., yet the guy can flat out ~shoooooot~ maybe he was a former sniper? He should reveal his technique ?

Buster, right on dude.

L-52 said it best=quality bbls. are the cats meow as to the accuracy some are getting. Coatings help-for other reasons, aside of accuracy. I should have got a Lilja, not a V-8.--- I'm a car guy.

[jurassic]

Accuracy of my new Lilja AR470 contour 16" barrel. Mega upper, Aero lower, Timney trigger, Young NM bolt carrier, Precision Phalynx Bolt, and ALG defense handguard, gas block. Zeiss 3x9x50 on Leupold mount. Pictures of the Rifle shortly.

Conditions are hot and humid here in south Louisiana. I was using factory Hornady SST, ran out and switched to AMAX. The SST shot as well as the AMAX. I have the components to load some Barnes 100 grn TTSX that I will try next.

My eyes aren't what they used to be (51), but this is a sweet shooting weapon! Final group measured just over 1/2"

Final 3 shot group at 100 yards


3 shot hot barrel


25 yard sight in

[jurassic]

[45r]

It's ready to go shooting that good.
Rifle looks good also.
I'm thinking about getting a mega upper next.
I hear they are a tight fit and it helps the accuracy.

[jurassic]

Thanks! I'm sure the gun shoots better than I can, but a 9 power scope is not enough for me anymore. The barrel was a very tight slip fit. I've had Mega uppers that needed heat and a cold barrel to put together. It fit the Aero lower better than an Aero upper, absolutely no slop.