Multi-Gun Training/Fun Comp September 18-20 2014

[babue]

"One holster I can recommend ready to go is the Haley Strategic/G-Code INCOG. It is one of the top CCW holster solutions on the market currently.

http://www.tacticalholsters.com/product/INCOG.html

http://youtu.be/Wp_mMZBI4KA

Also consider ordering the caddy mag for your particular pistol. The INCOG allows even wirey and small-framed people to carry a large-frame semi-auto concealed very well with casual clothing. I personally favor the appendix carry position after a lifetime of chasing concealment solutions.

Appendix allows you to conceal well, draw from a seated position while in a vehicle much easier, and is faster than any other CCW position in my experience. There is no need to move your torso when reaching for the initial purchase and draw stroke like there is with hip, behind the hip, etc.

Your carry solution is going to depend more on your unique anatomy and how the pistol interfaces between that and the holster. When working with clothing, think about what could possibly go wrong, and mitigate those potential failure points from a mindset, training, and equipment approach. "

That INCOG is a nice looking setup. I like the adjustable features and that mag caddy is really trick for appendix carry.
I would also suggest checking out Dale Fricke's appendix carry holsters: http://dalefrickeholsters.com/
I have been using one of his Seraphim models for my RMR'ed M&P for two years as my EDC holster and it has been the best one I have tried so far.
The INCOG looks interesting enough, I will have to contact them to ask if an RMR equipped model will work with the INCOG.
Thanks for the info LRRPF52.

[bwaites]

I've had troubles making appendix carry work, probably due to "Dunlaps disease" which I'm working on, but like most guys, I'm always looking for a new and better way to carry.

From reading this and the comments, I'm thinking you want the students to use their typical carry guns? So small single stacks like the Shield, etc. are the focus?

[explorecaves]

I've had troubles making appendix carry work, probably due to "Dunlaps disease" which I'm working on, but like most guys, I'm always looking for a new and better way to carry.

From reading this and the comments, I'm thinking you want the students to use their typical carry guns? So small single stacks like the Shield, etc. are the focus?

Looks like as long as your typical carry will handle the following without cleaning, it would be the best choice.

Pistol
* Functional handgun, preferably your primary carry pistol with a 1913 light rail, with functional sights, lubricated, and ready to digest several hundred rounds in 3 days.
* At least 4 functional magazines for your handgun, but 5-10 will make life easier.
* 600 rounds of quality, brass-cased Pistol ammunition
* Primary concealed carry holster, preferably a rigid model that allows re-holstering without interference or awkward insertion
* Pistol magazine pouches or carriers, at least one pouch that holds 2x mags
* Highly recommended to bring a weapon light that can mount on the pistol
* Back-up pistol with mags recommended

[bwaites]

Looks like as long as your typical carry will handle the following without cleaning, it would be the best choice.

I read that, but most concealed carry pistols handle 7-8 rounds, thats going to be A LOT of reloading to shoot 600 rounds! Not near as much from a 20 round Glock, M&P, or XDM!

[cory]

I carry an XDs but on my ankle. However, I don't carry it with the intent of playing quickdraw with anyone. Mu thinking is if I find myself in a situation where I need to pull my gun, and if there's enough distance between me and them, I'll take cover and pull my xds, if not then we're going hand to hand, I'm okay with that.

Anyways, I intend to bring my xds 45 and my xd 45(in a paddle holster). I'll use the one that's the most appropriate for the drill.

[bwaites]

Cory, glad to hear you are coming!

Bill

[LRRPF52]

The Glock 26 and Smith & Wesson M&P Compacts also make great carry guns. With the Crossbreed and some other holsters like the INCOG, you can comfortably carry a full-size auto no problem, as long as you're a certain height/build.

There was a wiry guy who came through the shoot house last year at the Utah State Sniper Competition, and I looked at him like, "Where's your blaster?"

He was one of the better shooters too, reloading from the mag caddy quickly from concealment during the course of fire. Standard magazine capacity on the Glock and M&P 9mm full size guns is 17 rounds in the mag. Glock 19 is 15rds. Glock 26 and Compact 9mm M&P are 12 rounds. You can get +2 base plates for the Glock mags easily.

An all-round excellent concealed carry piece is the Glock 19. You can also use full-size mags for your spares, so a Glock 17 mag will work great as a reload for a Glock 19, a Smith & Wesson M&P full-sized mag will work great for a Compact, etc.

The most important thing is to bring what you carry, and bring a back-up if you can. Bring plenty of mags, and be prepared to support all your firearms with as many levels of maintenance as you are capable and competent of. Nothing worse than for a primary tool to go down in a time-critical course.

I've seen a lot of guns break in high volume shooting, but I have yet to see a Glock or M&P fail, even in extreme arctic conditions over several days.

[bwaites]

He was one of the better shooters too, reloading from the mag caddy quickly from concealment during the course of fire. Standard magazine capacity on the Glock and M&P 9mm full size guns is 17 rounds in the mag. Glock 19 is 15rds. Glock 26 and Compact 9mm M&P are 12 rounds. You can get +2 base plates for the Glock mags easily.

Anyone figured out a good way to hide the +2's? That fat end sure makes 'em hard to conceal.

[LRRPF52]

At your height, appendix should work really well with the right cant. Just don't turn your set-up into a de-cocking holster.

I'm working on a custom solution for myself right now.

[bwaites]

At your height, appendix should work really well with the right cant. Just don't turn your set-up into a de-cocking holster.

I'm working on a custom solution for myself right now.

LOL! And you'll see evidence of how REALLY funny that is to me tonite in 4 weeks!

I've carried an XDM .40 in a Crossbreed since the week of Obama I election, but have most carried a Shield in .40 for that last 20 months. I may go ankle holster with it, (finding mags for the .40 Shield has been tough) and use the XDM.

[KentuckyBuddha]

If you are likewise adipose-endowed...I have had good luck with lateral placement just dorsal enough to not be awkward when you naturally swing your arms. I have liked the Cross-breed but I can see how a kydex of similar design might be great too.

[NugginFutz]

Well, as we poise at the edge of summer, I am taking inventory of all the items I will need for September's Training and Competition. LRPRF52's list seems comprehensive, but I think I have discovered a few items he may have missed.

For those who are still shopping, here is a link which may serve to jog your memory for things tactical you may still need...

http://youtu.be/ES9QxE3sUaw

I am particularly impressed with the versatility of the combo magazine via the creative use of duct tape.

ETA: It is noteworthy that alcohol and firearms are strictly a no-no.

[cory]

I move that an item be moved onto the packing list. Everybody brings a growler of their favorite local brew to be passed around the camp fire the last night.

[bwaites]

Well, as we poise at the edge of summer, I am taking inventory of all the items I will need for September's Training and Competition. LRPRF52's list seems comprehensive, but I think I have discovered a few items he may have missed.

For those who are still shopping, here is a link which may serve to jog your memory for things tactical you may still need...

http://youtu.be/ES9QxE3sUaw

I am particularly impressed with the versatility of the combo magazine via the creative use of duct tape.

ETA: It is noteworthy that alcohol and firearms are strictly a no-no.

That takes me to a disney commercial?

[LRRPF52]

I want the focus to be more on training and finding quick solutions, while recognizing that there is a certain element of balance with equipment. The satirical video above is actually a great example that equipment can be too much of a focus, when the reality is that you will have to deal with what you've got in the real world.

You will walk away from this a different shooter/thinker in terms of concealed carry, close quarters carbine marksmanship, and intermediate range rifle marksmanship, where scenario-based drills and problems will dominate the curriculum, as opposed to a traditional target shooting course of fire and mindset.

Questions that will be answered for you in numerous scenario-based encounters will include:

* What are some practical options if I'm getting out of or into my car, when an opportunist quickly approaches me from the front, left, right, or rear?

* How do I actually quickly grab my carbine, place it into operation from a position of being stowed somewhere, and how do I shoot, move, and reevaluate my surroundings effectively?

* How do I look at the terrain, stay oriented to my target, build a quick position, and make effective hits with a capable rifle or carbine at extended distances from 200-600yds, especially when the prone is not available? Where is the limit with me, my rifle, my optics, and ammunition in a field setting, and are there techniques that I can use to increase my 1st-round hit probability at distance?

[LRRPF52]

It's about time to collect a down payment so I can reserve the specific portions of the range we will need. That is what it will be going towards, in addition to the catering costs for out meal(s).

If you have not contacted me yet, do so ASAP about getting on this course. We're about full, with maybe 2-3 slots left I think. Send your confirmation email to:

orders@ar15buildbox.com

I'll let you know the down payment price once I know who is solid, but we're looking at $100-$150 for the down payment.

I found a great deal on some 69gr SMK Match ammo from PPU through Midway. I ordered a bunch and it showed up pronto. It has 28 5 star reviews.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2503219...-AdBlock01

This will be decent for the DM portion of the course if you are shooting 5.56/.223 Rem AR15. You'll have solid performance out to at least 400yds, and out to 600yds if the wind isn't too bad. I usually prefer the 75gr BTHP, A-MAX, and 77gr BTHP for 600yds with my 223 Wylde AR's.

If you're shooting Grendel, any of the factory loads will be better on steel compared to .223 Rem, especially your 123gr stuff. It hits almost like a .308 Winchester.

[Variable]

I found a great deal on some 69gr SMK Match ammo from PPU through Midway. I ordered a bunch and it showed up pronto. It has 28 5 star reviews.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/2503219...-AdBlock01

This will be decent for the DM portion of the course if you are shooting 5.56/.223 Rem AR15. You'll have solid performance out to at least 400yds, and out to 600yds if the wind isn't too bad. I usually prefer the 75gr BTHP, A-MAX, and 77gr BTHP for 600yds with my 223 Wylde AR's.

If you're shooting Grendel, any of the factory loads will be better on steel compared to .223 Rem, especially your 123gr stuff. It hits almost like a .308 Winchester.

Partial OT, but kinda related-- There is another new 77gr. Mk262 Mod 1 clone out from IMI that is cheaper than Black Hills and actually available if you want to try some new distance fodder.

Wideners has it: https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?...18|830|845

I chrnonoed it, and it compared very well to Black Hills velocity wise. I haven't shot it for accuracy (no range time to do it yet), but the other guys on Arf have. It's good to go.

First thread (got locked because the thread derailed when Wideners got hacked): http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/633767...round.html

Second newer thread: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/642509...nd_II.html

ETA: Here is the chrono data I originally posted here: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_16/633767...4#i6354960

/////"Okay, I got off my butt and went out for some real world chrono data. I didn't have time to go to an actual range to shoot for accuracy, just a chrono run at the corner of the driveway (sorry neighbors.LOL) I only used one barrel length, and no suppressor. It's 16deg. F outside, and I was short on time and daylight.

Chrono used: Shooting Chrony "Alpha Master"
Distance measured from muzzle to chrono: 15 feet.
Temperature: 16.5 deg. F
Altitude: 1584ft.
Humidity: 50.7%

Weapon used: Colt 16" LE6940

IMI 77gr. OTM, LR, MOD 1 ("Razor Core")
Lot number: 00235/D

Low: 2712fps
High: 2784fps
Avg.: 2742fps
ES: 71.43
SD: 24.04

Shot numbers
1.) 2729fps
2.) 2738fps
3.) 2784fps
4.) 2730fps
5.) 2760fps
6.) 2717fps
7.) 2773fps
8.) 2727fps
9.) 2712fps
10.)2751fps



As a comparison I also fired Black Hills MK262 Mod 1 (White box "Seconds") ammunition aquired from Cabela's in the past.

Chrono used: Shooting Chrony "Alpha Master"
Distance measured from muzzle to chrono: 15 feet.
Temperature: 16.5 deg. F
Altitude: 1584ft.
Humidity: 50.6%

Weapon used: Colt 16" LE6940

Black Hills 5.56MM 77gr. Match HP
Lot number: BLH06H120-001

Low: 2611fps
High:2665fps
Avg.:2635fps
ES: 53.81
SD: 16.43

Shot numbers:
1.) 2641fps
2.) 2631fps
3.) 2611fps
4.) 2614fps
5.) 2632fps
6.) 2648fps
7.) 2635fps
8.) 2623fps
9.) 2647fps
10.)2665fps


Hopefully this info is helpful. Yes, I know these aren't 20 shot strings, and they weren't measured across an Oehler, but unless someone wants to send me free ammo and a free Oehler, these will have to do for now. I had to ditch two string attempts for piles of "error" failures, and this ammo gets expensive when you are just wasting it.

So.... In my Colt LE6940 (16" chrome 1:7 twist) I got an average of 2742fps from the IMI ammo, and an average of 2635 from the Black Hills. The temperature was only 16 degrees, but I had just brought the ammo from inside. I doubt it was much of a factor.

All said: YMMV, my .02, etc., etc....!




ETA: If my 6940 averaged 2742fps at 15 feet from the muzzle, what does that equal for "muzzle" velocity? How do you figure that?
ETA #2: I'm pretty surprised at the numbers I got, but I got what I got. I can only post what the chrony says. Maybe the BH lot I was using was a tad slower than normal? I'm sure stuff varies a bit, I dunno?"/////

Not looking to derail Paul's thread, just tossing in some related info.

[wbbnospam]

Coming in Sept. with NugginFutz from New Mexico!

[bwaites]

This thread needs to be woken up, as we are just 6 weeks from 0 day!

There are still a couple spots open, but LRRPF52 has been off teaching the Boy Scouts how to shoot for that last month and a half and hasn't had a chance to get on and say much. He will be done next weekend, though, and will be back to offer his wisdom!

For anyone that wants to come or bring someone that doesn't have a spot, please email him at the buildbox email address and he will get you signed up. (Give him a chance to get back and get squared away before panicking about not having received a reply, he'll be back online next weekend, but I'm sure will be backed up for a few days!)

I'm looking forward to it, and we are hoping for a special guest appearance!

[NugginFutz]

Thanks for bumping the thread. bwaites. It refreshed my memory, and I saw where LRRPF52 mentioned a down payment. Has anyone been contacted one, yet?