6.5 Grendel Variants, Good or Bad?

[BluntForceTrauma]

I seem to remember that there was a section for grendel variants on this site.

Ha! Wrong site. Although, seriously, I'm open to opinions whether there should be a Grendel variants section here.

I think most of us agree that variants are perfectly valid when honestly labeled as such.

If one looks at the Big Picture, more chambers "eating" factory 6.5 Grendel ammunition (whether SAAMI 65G or not) can be seen as a good thing, in terms of tempting more vendors to get on board.

The downside is confused consumers who throw up their hands and say, "I can't feed 6.5 Grendel factory ammo in this chamber! What's wrong with the 6.5 Grendel?" or "6.5 Grendel factory ammo shoots like crap in this chamber! What's wrong with the 6.5 Grendel?" You just know the 6.5 Grendel will be thrown under the bus and not the variant chamber. . . .

Of course, it can cut the other way and proper variants can do the whole program a favor and make 6.5 Grendel factory ammo look good.

I'm truly on the fence. Opinions on adding a variants section? Or perhaps it's such a minor subsection that posts about them can just stay in the main section without adding clutter?

John

[JASmith]

I am truly in favor of a Grendel Wildcats sub-forum. This would be the section where ANY variation from the SAAMI chamber - caliber, shoulder length, freebore, throat, etc. would be discussed.

We have wildcats, for example, ranging in caliber from .20 up through at least .35 and possibly .375 in existence already. We have the slightly stretch version by Von Gruff. There have been lots of discussions about what can be gained from seating the bullet way out but one needs a longer throat to do that.

All of these and more can be discussed in a section of this type.

We could even title it "Grendel-Cats"...

[NugginFutz]

I am truly in favor of a Grendel Wildcats sub-forum. This would be the section where ANY variation from the SAAMI chamber - caliber, shoulder length, freebore, throat, etc. would be discussed.

We have wildcats, for example, ranging in caliber from .20 up through at least .35 and possibly .375 in existence already. We have the slightly stretch version by Von Gruff. There have been lots of discussions about what can be gained from seating the bullet way out but one needs a longer throat to do that.

All of these and more can be discussed in a section of this type.

We could even title it "Grendel-Cats"...

+1

I think that by establishing a section (or sections) specifically for the discussion of such variants, questions regarding such things can be addressed and framed with the understanding that they were variants. I remember having a bit of confusion, early on, regarding the .264 LBC and had, at times, referred to it as a Grendel. (Silly me).

The heading suggested by JASmith, though, was previously offered by another member (Buster). Credit where credit is due, I say. Unless, of course, Joe is paying homage to him w/o specifically saying so.

[bwaites]

One issue is that we really haven't defined what the Grendel is.

Is it the cartridge? If it is, then all the rifles that fire that cartridge are Grendels. In its most basic form, I think this is the case.

Is it the chamber? If so, then the SAAMI chamber and only the SAAMI chamber is a Grendel. Anything else is a variant.

Is it the entire system, a SAAMI cartridge fed into a SAAMI chamber? In that case, only SAAMI chambers fed by SAAMI compliant ammo is a Grendel. Everything else is a variant.

I like variants. I own one, a 264 LBC. I want another, a bolt rifle firing factory ammo, but from a .292-.295 neck, which might be set up so that I can load long bullets out around 2.4 inches and maximize that little powder space. Would that be a Grendel? Not in my mind, because it would have a tight throat, and would load longer than factory ammo. BUT....it would be a Grendel variant, just like the Wylde is a .223 variant. Why do I want such a bolt rifle, because in a bolt rifle like that you could finally squeeze every last drop of performance out of the Grendel cartridge. You simply can't do that in an AR, nor should you try.

A sub forum sounds great.

[NugginFutz]

One issue is that we really haven't defined what the Grendel is.

Is it the cartridge? If it is, then all the rifles that fire that cartridge are Grendels. In its most basic form, I think this is the case.

Is it the chamber? If so, then the SAAMI chamber and only the SAAMI chamber is a Grendel. Anything else is a variant.

Is it the entire system, a SAAMI cartridge fed into a SAAMI chamber? In that case, only SAAMI chambers fed by SAAMI compliant ammo is a Grendel. Everything else is a variant.

All excellent points. I believe that the answers to those could easily be used to establish which chamberings the sub forum would be used for. While I am positive that some posts may end up in the wrong sub forum, a diligent mod (cough) would gently shepherd those errant posts into the correct sub forum, with explanation. Perhaps the customary sticky at the top of the sub forum could outline Bill's points in the form of a definition or characteristics.

Personally, I think it would be clearest to follow the chamber as the baseline. The .223 Wylde will shoot the .223 or 5.56, but it is still a Wylde(cat).

Further, I think that by adopting the variants into their own sub-forum, a healthier, more robust conversation within the family can be had.

[JASmith]

...The heading suggested by JASmith, though, was previously offered by another member (Buster). Credit where credit is due, I say. Unless, of course, Joe is paying homage to him w/o specifically saying so.

Darn! I thought I was being original

Hopefully this is another case of a good idea having many fathers!

I started my first spreadsheet with the title "Grendelcats" on December 7, 2011. I have used the term off and on since then. If Buster posted the idea earlier than that date, he deserves credit for being the first suggester!

Cheers!

[Y85]

I think the sub-forum is a great idea, if for no other reason than its very existence is a poultice of truth wrapped around the open wounds of the last month or so. I have avoided commentary on this whole issue -- mainly because I don't know enough to know what I'm talking about -- but I have been saddened by the vitriol that has been spilled across the internet, and even here in one of the last civil spots I know. In addition, I know I would learn something from reading the entries in the subforum. Personally I would suggest the title be: Wildcats, Variants, and Mutants.

[jmhallrn]

I couldn't find a reliable definition anywhere, but based on my reloading books and experience a "wildcat" refers to the cartridge, rather than the chamber. There are a handful that can be formed by fireforming with factory ammunition (Ackley style), but most require some form of modification to the cartridge in order to produce functioning ammo. I think a sub-forum would best serve those variants that require necking up/down or other modifications that make them incompatible with a factory rifle.

[LRRPF52]

We did have a variants section on the old forum. The 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks also discuss how to approach loading for your particular chamber.

[BjornF16]

One issue is that we really haven't defined what the Grendel is.

Is it the entire system, a SAAMI cartridge fed into a SAAMI chamber? In that case, only SAAMI chambers fed by SAAMI compliant ammo is a Grendel. Everything else is a variant.

^^^ This

I like variants. I own one, a 264 LBC. I want another, a bolt rifle firing factory ammo, but from a .292-.295 neck, which might be set up so that I can load long bullets out around 2.4 inches and maximize that little powder space. Would that be a Grendel? Not in my mind, because it would have a tight throat, and would load longer than factory ammo. BUT....it would be a Grendel variant, just like the Wylde is a .223 variant. Why do I want such a bolt rifle, because in a bolt rifle like that you could finally squeeze every last drop of performance out of the Grendel cartridge. You simply can't do that in an AR, nor should you try.

You must have liked mine at BoomerShoot 2013!

[Buster]

Darn! I thought I was being original

Hopefully this is another case of a good idea having many fathers!

I started my first spreadsheet with the title "Grendelcats" on December 7, 2011. I have used the term off and on since then. If Buster posted the idea earlier than that date, he deserves credit for being the first suggester!

Cheers!

Hey, I know for a fact, I am not an original thinker, especially when it comes to firearms. Hell, I didn't even know what a 6.5 Grendel was in 12/7/2011!

I just like the fact that this is a very focused forum and has carved out a niche on the world wide web for my now favorite cartridge.
I hate some of the forums out there that are all over the place, Glocks, tasers, shotguns,,,,waaaay to diverse for me, but that's just me. I'm sure they serve their purpose.

Not looking for any credit here, just information, knowledge and cool ass pics of Grendels....and a few laughs from time to time

[BluntForceTrauma]

Personally I would suggest the title be: Wildcats, Variants, and Mutants.

LOL!

John

[JASmith]

Hey, I know for a fact, I am not an original thinker, especially when it comes to firearms. Hell, I didn't even know what a 6.5 Grendel was in 12/7/2011!...Not looking for any credit here, just information, knowledge and cool ass pics of Grendels....and a few laughs from time to time

You deserve credit for an idea independently arrived at regardless of timing.

I have discovered many times that my idea just happened to match what others had already thought up.

I rejoice on those few times when others arrive at the same conclusion without my help (or do we mean gentle persuasion, logic, or outright browbeating?).

[NugginFutz]

You deserve credit for an idea independently arrived at regardless of timing.

I have discovered many times that my idea just happened to match what others had already thought up.

I rejoice on those few times when others arrive at the same conclusion without my help (or do we mean gentle persuasion, logic, or outright browbeating?).

Oh, come on, you two! Get a room or something. All this harmony is making me nauseous.

[JASmith]

What, you mean I need to figure where my brass knuckles went!?

[explorecaves]

What, you mean I need to figure where my brass knuckles went!?

Thought those were banned in Kommiefornia?

[cory]

I am truly in favor of a Grendel Wildcats sub-forum. This would be the section where ANY variation from the SAAMI chamber - caliber, shoulder length, freebore, throat, etc. would be discussed.

We have wildcats, for example, ranging in caliber from .20 up through at least .35 and possibly .375 in existence already. We have the slightly stretch version by Von Gruff. There have been lots of discussions about what can be gained from seating the bullet way out but one needs a longer throat to do that.

All of these and more can be discussed in a section of this type.

We could even title it "Grendel-Cats"...

I'm not trying to knock anyone, but has been mentioned by Hanka, Grendel will likely get the blame for any problem child variants. With that in mind I'd suggest

6.5mm AR15 Wildcats

Is it the chamber? If so, then the SAAMI chamber and only the SAAMI chamber is a Grendel. Anything else is a variant.

For me it's this one as the SAAMI spec is the only published/document Grendel. I would say any factory ammo loaded to this spec is Grendel Ammo.

[nincomp]

We did have a variants section on the old forum.

So HA back at you Mr. Grendel-type person (er, Mr. Hanka, moderator, sir). Shows that I occasionally remember things right.
HA again for good measure.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Fine, nincomp, ya got me. As befits a member of the Horde, you win a flask of buttermilk and a rounded stone from a forlorn beach on the windswept coast of Denmark. Happy now?

John

[nincomp]

Can I trade the flask of buttermilk for a second rounded stone?