Group Buy Lilja Reloading Document

[Kikn]

I didn't see a thread about this yet. And since we have so many people that bought into the Lilja group buy, that Cory graciously set up and worked on for us. I thought it prudent that since Lilja barrels were so close in spec that we might make a thread about reloading for these barrels specifically.


Cory's post about max COAL/OAL
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...ilja+group

Include Items

Barrel Type- (Example: Lilja 319, Lilja 318, Lilja AR24, ect.)
Barrel Length-
Barrel Twist-
Case Trim length-
Primer Type-
Brass used - (hornady, lapua, wolf, ect.)
Bullet Type/Ballistic Coefficient <Specify g1 or g7>-
Bullet seating depth- (Add Jump to lands if you have that information)
Powder Used- (Start Load) (Max Load)
Velocity- (Start Load) (Max Load) <Suppressed or not/type of suppressor>

Shots Fired/Group Size/Yards -(Example: 5/.4"/100) <See Post 4 from JASmith for Directions in calculating Group Size)
<http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...#post89466>

Weather Conditions::
Altitude-
Temperature-
Wind/(Direction of wind in relation to your shooting)-
Barometric Pressure-
Humidity -
Results- (With Photos if you have them)


And a written summery if you have one.

If I've left anything out let me know and I'll update the main page.

If we get enough info myself or someone else can create a spread sheet that can be downloaded/viewed more easily and posted at the top.

[Kikn]

Reserved for common strands of information and specifications that are similar to give common starting and reference points.

[cory]

Thanks for starting this Kikn. I emailed everyone a link to this that bought a barrel.

[JASmith]

Can you include an optional block for group size and number of shots that went into the group along with the range? Group size is the largest center-center spacing in the group. Can get the center to center by measuring outside to outside and subtracting .264" Weather conditions might also help.

[Kikn]

Awesome that will get things going.

Thanks for starting this Kikn. I emailed everyone a link to this that bought a barrel.

Changes Made.

Can you include an optional block for group size and number of shots that went into the group along with the range? Group size is the largest center-center spacing in the group. Can get the center to center by measuring outside to outside and subtracting .264" Weather conditions might also help.

[Kikn]

Just started on my first reloads

Lilja - 319 barrel 1/8 twist

Primers - WSR

Brass - hornady

Powder -- Hogdens IMR8208XBR
bullets-- Hornady 123SST & 123 NOSLER custom competition

Brass Trimmed to 1.518 +/- .002
COL 123SST -- 2.27/-.005
COL 123 CC -- 2.26 /-.005

Jump - .01-.015

Loads 27.0 - 28.0 (.2 gr. Incriments )

Hopefully I can find time to go shoot in the next couple of weeks. I will update this post and link back to it when completed.

[Tedward]

Just started on my first reloads

Lilja - 319 barrel 1/8 twist

bullets-- Hornady 123SST

Coal 1.518 +/- .002
OAL 123SST -- 2.27/-.005
OAL 123 CC -- 2.26 /-.005

I finally got time to measure my COAL on about 7 projectiles with 4 different barrel manufactures. The Hornady SST 123gr in my Lilja read 1.768 which is more in line with Cory's #'s.
The question I have is if your loading these to 1.518, is that considered a lot of jump to the lands? Will these barrels be as accurate with that much jump?

When measuring these projectiles for the Lilja Barrel the cannelure is well forward of the case end so it seems as if they will need set backward like your doing. I also noticed the 2nd cannelure on the Barnes TTSX and TSX 120gr pills is exposed. Is that an issue?

Will there be an issue of too much jump or free bore because the Lilja has a + difference in COAL of .009 to .078 than my AA barrel and .059 to .108 than my Liberty depending on projectiles. On average of my 7 projectiles, that is more than .054 more than my AA Barrel, which lets factory 123gr A-max, SST and AA Scenro 123 ammo fall out fine after being locked in with a bolt.

Measured: SST-123gr, SST-129gr, SST-120, V-Max-95gr, Sierra Spitzer-120gr, Barnes TTSX & TSX-120gr

[Tedward]

Just started on my first reloads

Lilja - 319 barrel 1/8 twist


bullets-- Hornady 123SST

Coal 1.518 +/- .002
OAL 123SST -- 2.27/-.005
OAL 123 CC -- 2.26 /-.005

Jump - .01-.015

How can the jump be so little if the COAL to the lands is like mine and Corys measurements which is around 1.768 to 1.765? That seems to me it would be .248 jump unless I'm just not getting this....
Just looking for explanation to learn.

[Kikn]

Its possible that I am misunderstanding the term/acronym and am listing it incorrectly.

My CAOL listed is the length my Brass is trimmed to.
My OAL is the total length from the bottom of the case to the tip of the projectile.

[cory]

Its possible that I am misunderstanding the term/acronym and am listing it incorrectly.

My CAOL listed is the length my Brass is trimmed to. Trim to length
My OAL is the total length from the bottom of the case to the tip of the projectile. COL

I put the correct terminology for you in red in the quote. COL is the correct term for the end to end length of your loaded ammo. OAL is the length from the primer end of the brass to the ogive of the bullet. You'll need a hornady or forster comparator to measure that.

I apologize as this is in large part my fault.

This is a thread for reloading data. There's a thread dedicated to the OAL/COL of these barrels. Let's move this conversation there, please.

Let's try to keep this thread on track.

[Tedward]

I put the correct terminology for you in red in the quote. COL is the correct term for the end to end length of your loaded ammo. OAL is the length from the primer end of the brass to the ogive of the bullet. You'll need a hornady or forster comparator to measure that.

I apologize as this is in large part my fault.

This is a thread for reloading data. There's a thread dedicated to the OAL/COL of these barrels. Let's move this conversation there, please.

Let's try to keep this thread on track.

I will go to the other Thread but I thought, still confused apparently, OAL is from end of case to the tip of the bullet. COAL is when your using the comparator and is the Comparator Over All Length (COAL). Thats what I understand from Hornady.

The OAL will be longer than the COAL, COAL measures I thought were from the Ogive to case end. Now if I'm wrong please forgive me and all of these measuring techniques really need a sticky.

[LRRPF52]

Definitions of cartridge lengths and component lengths:

COL: Cartridge Overall Length
COAL: Cartridge OverAll Length (same as above)
OAL: Overall Length (same thing again)

Hogdon uses C.O.L.
Speer uses COAL
LEE uses OAL
Lyman uses OAL
Hornady uses C.O.L.
Sierra uses C.O.A.L.
Lapua uses C.O.L.

Case length: length of the case only
Projectile length: length of the projectile base to tip

Ogive length varies with manufacturing. Comparator gauges can be used for determining distance to the lands, but there will be variance, especially with secant and VLD pills.

Hornady has no such reference to COAL that indicates a comparator. Look through any Hornady Reloading Manual and find a reference to that. COAL = COL.

[Tedward]

Definitions of cartridge lengths and component lengths:

COL: Cartridge Overall Length
COAL: Cartridge OverAll Length (same as above)
OAL: Overall Length (same thing again)

Hogdon uses C.O.L.
Speer uses COAL
LEE uses OAL
Lyman uses OAL
Hornady uses C.O.L.
Sierra uses C.O.A.L.
Lapua uses C.O.L.

Case length: length of the case only
Projectile length: length of the projectile base to tip

Ogive length varies with manufacturing. Comparator gauges can be used for determining distance to the lands, but there will be variance, especially with secant and VLD pills.

Hornady has no such reference to COAL that indicates a comparator. Look through any Hornady Reloading Manual and find a reference to that. COAL = COL.

Ok Getting confusing info here and just read this link. Just added another acronym for measuring and hope this gets rid of some of the confusion. CBTO (Cartridge Base to Ogive) Some peoples measurements are listed as OAL when they are CBTO.
http://www.bergerbullets.com/effects-of-...to-part-2/

[Tedward]

So another question is if the compounded throat for the Grendel measures different CBTO from every manufacture, Liberty, Lilja, AA, Brownells and so on, and the Ogive is all over the place, this is making factory ammo have to jump to the lands. I have different CBTO measurements on every one of these barrels. The Lilja has the longest CBOT out of all of them (SST's 1.768). The AA Barrel I have and Liberty are only .036 difference on the SST123's (AA 1.694 & Liberty 1.668).

Who is doing SAAMI???

[pds]

My guess would be due to the different reamers used to cut the chambers. A brand new reamer may be ground to the +0.002" side to the SAAMI spec in the throat portion and would still be within spec. Then have another reamer that is well used and is now 0.000" to -0.001" in the throat and needs to be reground. Just a guess on my part.

pds

[Tedward]

The difference on my AA barrel to Lilja is more than wear. .074 seems like a lot of wear and I think Lilja has new reamers and AA's QC is top notch so something gives.

[BjornF16]

The difference on my AA barrel to Lilja is more than wear. .074 seems like a lot of wear and I think Lilja has new reamers and AA's QC is top notch so something gives.

How do you know it is more than wear?

In the same sentence you say .074 "seems" like a lot of wear but that Lilja has new reamers (which means they may be on the high side of tolerances).

Have you actually done the math to determine how much longer the throat would be with +.002" on the reamer?

[Walter]

Ted is the AA barrel the one that Bill A said was not one of his?

[Tedward]

I guess I don't know that formula so if you could help do that it would be great.

I did just get my Shilen Barrel and just finished measuring the CBTO. Actually all of there measurements seem to have the 129gr and 123gr SST's land right on the cannelure. There measurements fall right in the middle of the AA barrel and the Liberty Barrel. I'll have my Lilja 24" Monday and add that to my log file and just keep getting more numbers.

If there is a formula to show the low side and the high side of reamer tolerances, that would be great. Then I can compare that to the Grendel whatever Satern will call it and see how they all compare.

Truthfully, all I want to know is how certain barrels shoot with factory ammo and hand loads that are heavy weight and wider Ogive's. This is not to say anyone's barrel is better or worse, just to pass on what is available for a persons use.

Some people don't hand load and use factory ammo so if a barrel is reamed on the high side does the jump affect the accuracy? If so then a barrel with a shorter Ogive might be the barrel for them.

[Tedward]

Ted is the AA barrel the one that Bill A said was not one of his?

He did not say it was not one of his, he said if there was an issue he would look at it for me. I also took suggestions from a forum members recommendation and cleaned the barrel which seems to have made is so factory ammo drops out after being locked with a bolt. I posted that I think the barrel was dirty so I don't think that is an issue.