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My understanding, and in not a doctor nor do I play one on tv, just at home, is that as long as all of the dimensions are the same between the two bolts, they are interchangable. They headspace them with the extension and not the chamber cut. Being that there are type 1, type 2, and what I have read others being completely out of both specs, the barrel maker needs to have the bolt you are using so they don't send you a barrel headspaced for type 2 and you put a type 1 or other out of spec bolt in and blow up your gun.
Again I am not a gun doctor. I just play one at home.
cst Wrote:can someone explain to me...when a bolt is sent to say lilja for it to be chambered off of...say a typeII bolt from LBC or AA etc...what if that bolt breaks...you can simply just buy another brand typeII, drop it in, and wont loose any accuracy?
In other words..then whats the point in sending in a bolt to have it made to chamber that? As long as you have a consistent typeII or I bolt to the chamber you should be able to interchange bolt brands ... correct? and not loose accuracy..? Liljas site says that they dont guarantee if another bolt is used with their barrel since its headspaced with a maxim...
The terms "Type I" and "Type II" are BHW internal identifiers for them to distinguish between their original bolts (made long after Grendel had been on the market), and their move to make more compliant bolts with AA Grendel/Beowulf bolts. The main difference is the bolt face depth recess, but there are other dimensions to a Grendel bolt that set it apart from others as well.
At least 3 different machine shops have come online in the last year making bolts out of 9000-series alloy to address the challenges faced, and AA has used 9000-series for the hard use bolts for years now. Over the 12 years of 6.5 Grendel presence in the market, there have been very few AA Grendel bolts broken, and the ones that were had been installed in upper receiver that weren't square, and or used with above maximum pressure hand loads.
A lot of shops had been providing an after-market 7.62x39 bolt for 7.62x39 AR15's, but almost every one of these models had bad metallurgy, and the trail of tears of broken "7.62x39" bolts is long and wide. None of these shops cared to look at Colt's Research, Development, Testing, and Evaluation on the first 7.62x39 production AR15, which Colt did in the 1980's...none but Alexander Arms that I'm aware of. There are some legitimate engineering challenges with making the AR15's 5.56 bolt work with 5.56 pressures, let alone deal with an enlarged bolt face without an enlarged bolt diameter in cartridges like 7.62x39, 6.8x43, and 6.5 Grendel.
Just as the military went to Carpenter 158 for the 5.56 NATO M16/M4 series, AA found the metallurgy that would produce a long-lasting Grendel bolt. I know Maxim Firearms submitted their Grendel bolt to an engineering team, and worked back and forth with reputable manufacturers of the 6.5 Grendel to do everything to get the bolts right, and everyone seems to be trucking along well so far.
My standard AA bolt has been pushing along since 2009 now, and I shoot a lot. I have bins full of 6.5 Grendel brass, even aside from the brass that I have re-sized and is ready to load again. As long as you purchase components that are meant to work with each other, from reputable sources, you will be good to go. This axiom is also very true for a standard 5.56 AR15, and there are places I won't touch with a 10ft pole when it comes to AR15 parts in any caliber.
Mark has gone over our Grendel twice and has found no defects in the build. At this point, he, like most of you, questions the LBC bolt metallurgy. Now that this concern has been raised, he recommends that we run only the AA bolts.
Now having benefit of a professional opinion (and, THANK YOU, the experienced opinions here), I called Les Baer. He was busy in the shop, so I was promised a call back. The lady who answered the phone said that Baer advises against using a suppressor on the Grendel. I mentioned that no suppressor was used with the second LBC bolt and it sheared after only 123 rounds.
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Now that it has been shown that LBC could be using marginal material for their bolts, if their 264 bolts are made out of 8620 also, I am back to my theory that the internet has brought to light manufacturing and QC issues that have been around for years and exacerbated by the unprecedented demand for firearms. That is one reason I have found this site so helpful. Having reputable manufactures and suppliers identified by people with extensive experience with those parties, is to me, much better that trying to figure out anything from reading gun magazines. You still have to be able to sift through all of the useless and inaccurate information that comes with the internet but at least the good information is there if you have the patience to find it. Joseph
So... having not received the promised call back, I called Les Baer this morning.
To the best of my recollection the short conversation went like this:
[INDENT]Nukes: Hi, this is [Nukes]. I am calling to give you a heads up about a problem I have had with two of your Grendel bolts.
Les: Oh, you are the guy that was running a suppressor.
Nukes: The first bolt broke when I was running a suppressor, but I have not used a suppressor since the first bolt broke. The second bolt sheared a lug after only 123 rounds.
Les: You probably damaged your bolt extension, scratched it or something.
Nukes: Mark Gordon who built the rifle, has gone over it carefully. He used a borescope and even checked the bolt extension. He found no problem.
Les: You probably damaged your bolt extension, scratched it or something.
Nukes: Mark Gordon who built the rifle, has gone over it carefully. He used a borescope and even checked the bolt extension. He found no problem.
Les: Well, I'd be happy to check the rifle over if you send it to me.
Nukes: Thank you. The offer is much appreciated, but that won't be necessary.
Les: I'm happy to check anyone's rifle over if you send it.
Nukes: Thank you. That won't be necessary. I'm not calling to ask anything of you. I just wanted to give you a heads up in case you might have received a batch of bad bolts.
Les: No, they're fine.
Nukes. Thank you. Have a nice day.
Les: [click][/INDENT]
The AA bolt is in the rifle. We'll see how it goes. In the mean time I will call AA and ask if they have heard of problems with any lots of Wolf 120 gn MPT.
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Joseph5 Wrote:Now that it has been shown that LBC could be using marginal material for their bolts, if their 264 bolts are made out of 8620 also, I am back to my theory that the internet has brought to light manufacturing and QC issues that have been around for years and exacerbated by the unprecedented demand for firearms. That is one reason I have found this site so helpful. Having reputable manufactures and suppliers identified by people with extensive experience with those parties, is to me, much better that trying to figure out anything from reading gun magazines. You still have to be able to sift through all of the useless and inaccurate information that comes with the internet but at least the good information is there if you have the patience to find it. Joseph
Do they have anything other than the .264 LBC? I think we are all using the same bolt.
I would like to add that in the other thread, it was pointed out that myself and dammitman were the only ones that have broken bolts. It was also pointed out that since the information I had found had no hard evidence to back it, this wasn't a "known" problem, but a fluke. How many other bolts have broken and been blamed on "suppressed" or hard use. Now with Nukes that makes 3 recorded here.
Also keep in mind that the vast majority of people who get into this cartridge have never heard of the forum, will probably never hear of the forum, and will never see the forum.
I called AA today (and got through!) and they said they had not heard of any overpressure lots of Wolf 120 MPT.
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Les Baer makes rifles in 223, 264 LBC, and 308. My guess, and it is just a guess, is that he probably uses the same supplier for his bolts and BCG's and since 8620 works in his 223 and 308 and that is what they have a supply of already lets use it for the 264 bolt also. It is not the best material for the job. The question is, was this known before the bolts were made and a conscious decision was made to do it anyways, or has it now come to light and lets just blame it on shooting suppressed and not address the issue. As LRRP52 stated most of the 6.5 shooters probably don't come to this forum or even know about it. How many people have sheared a bolt lug on a bad bolt that was never heard about? I think that a lot of firearms manufacturers have gotten lax over the years when it comes to design, manufacture, and QC in the quest for maximized profits. Until people really took to the internet and forums like this each incident was isolated and it was hard to connect the dots or see the pattern. Remington has been very hit and miss on quality for a long time and there are a lot of other incidents I have read about, Knights Armaments M110 and the Kimber 1911 for the Marines come to mind right off. If a company isn't willing to make sure a that a firearm going to troops in a time of war isn't perfect why would they care if a bunch of lemons go out the door to the general public.
It is not only the firearms industry. I recently borrowed a friend's antenna analyzer and 50 Ohm load of 1970's vintage and it is far superior in utility, calibration, and durability than the stuff on the shelves now.
Even compare the manners of people who are supposed to help you in stores and restaurants.
The nation is in decline.
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I also had this same kind of thing happen using LBC bolts. Broke 2 back to back.
Dare I ask? "Were you using a suppressor?" [laughing]
Are you running an AA bolt now?
Not exactly a buyer's market, a choice of easy to obtain bolts that break or long waits for bolts that don't break.
Nukes Wrote:It is not only the firearms industry. I recently borrowed a friend's antenna analyzer and 50 Ohm load of 1970's vintage and it is far superior in utility, calibration, and durability than the stuff on the shelves now.
Even compare the manners of people who are supposed to help you in stores and restaurants.
The nation is in decline.
I'm wearing this record out, but this generation has inherited a technology they neither understand, have never contributed to, nor do they deserve it.
In areas like metallurgy and engineering, you see it start to fall apart when machine shops step over 100 years back in time suggesting different alloys for high-pressure, high-shock applications. There's a thread on one of the forums right now talking about S7 tool steel bolts, for example. Major no-go.
A lot of people are throwing engineering and testing out the window because they've never had to do it, and everything has worked just fine for them all these years riding the coat tails of engineering done in the early 1900's, and industry standards for factors of safety.
Some of the most enlightening reads in this area are several books that LR1955 gave me, to include a reloading handbook from 1936. It is truly a gem. I'll have to photograph some pages with my handheld belt computer/wireless transmission device/digital burst/data storage/camera/video camera/panoramic camera/ballistic computer/phonebook/global video-conferencing/video game device, and post them on the forum.
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03-01-2014, 12:18 AM
(This post was last modified: 03-01-2014, 12:21 AM by montana.)
Nukes Wrote:It is not only the firearms industry. I recently borrowed a friend's antenna analyzer and 50 Ohm load of 1970's vintage and it is far superior in utility, calibration, and durability than the stuff on the shelves now.
Even compare the manners of people who are supposed to help you in stores and restaurants.
The nation is in decline.
During our latest blizzard I have been plowing snow for my rental properties and a young fellow who was stuck didn't understand why his new Ford 4X4 was stuck. I had to show him how to engage the four wheel drive. He was completely clueless. I had two young peoples home freeze up, they didn't understand you have to plug in heat tape. I witnessed a young man trying to chop his lug nuts off his SUV wheel with an axe because he didn't know how to change his flat tire. I could go on and on but you have a point. The level of stupidity and indifference I have seen is amazing . The simplest of abilities we all learned at a young age has escaped many young adults today. I know many business people who are unable to get employees to just show up for work on time, let alone be competent in their jobs. My wife works in the educational system and I doubt most older people understand how broken it is. There are many fine young people but their numbers are shrinking compared to the majority. This plague is spreading rapidly.
LRRPF52 Wrote:.....my handheld belt computer/wireless transmission device/digital burst/data storage/camera/video camera/panoramic camera/ballistic computer/phonebook/global video-conferencing/video game device, and post them on the forum.
Ah hah! You have video games! [laughing]
explorecaves
Unregistered
LRRPF52 Wrote:I'm wearing this record out, but this generation has inherited a technology they neither understand, have never contributed to, nor do they deserve it.
In areas like metallurgy and engineering, you see it start to fall apart when machine shops step over 100 years back in time suggesting different alloys for high-pressure, high-shock applications. There's a thread on one of the forums right now talking about S7 tool steel bolts, for example. Major no-go.
A lot of people are throwing engineering and testing out the window because they've never had to do it, and everything has worked just fine for them all these years riding the coat tails of engineering done in the early 1900's, and industry standards for factors of safety.
Some of the most enlightening reads in this area are several books that LR1955 gave me, to include a reloading handbook from 1936. It is truly a gem. I'll have to photograph some pages with my handheld belt computer/wireless transmission device/digital burst/data storage/camera/video camera/panoramic camera/ballistic computer/phonebook/global video-conferencing/video game device, and post them on the forum.
Throw in all the safety requirements enforced now and there is major reluctance to even actually perform any testing "because computers can model it for us now."
montana Wrote:During our latest blizzard I have been plowing snow for my rental properties and a young fellow who was stuck didn't understand why his new Ford 4X4 was stuck. I had to show him how to engage the four wheel drive. He was completely clueless. I had two young peoples home freeze up, they didn't understand you have to plug in heat tape. I witnessed a young man trying to chop his lug nuts off his SUV wheel with an axe because he didn't know how to change his flat tire. I could go on and on but you have a point. The level of stupidity and indifference I have seen is amazing . The simplest of abilities we all learned at a young age has escaped many young adults today. I know many business people who are unable to get employees to just show up for work on time, let alone be competent in their jobs. My wife works in the educational system and I doubt most older people understand how broken it is. There are many fine young people but their numbers are shrinking compared to the majority. This plague is spreading rapidly.
[begin soapbox] I pause so many times during the day to wonder how the person facing me manages to walk and breathe at the same time. They are not at all charitable thoughts, but I am unavoidably aghast at things like you describe, tasks that my grammar school age children can do that adults cannot do. [end soapbox]
Nukes Wrote:Ah hah! You have video games! [laughing]
I can't uninstall the stupid things! Same with Facebook. The phone won't let you uninstall their surveillance system on you and your network. Looks like I need some education in programming and phone hacking to get around the system programs that were decided for me by some imbecile who signed a shared marketing agreement to data mine the snot out of my activity with 3rd parties.
I once witnessed a woman in the State institutional industry try to teach young adults (who were on the path to becoming emancipated) how to keep iron marks out of their pants by ironing them inside out. The look on the gangster's face was priceless when he turned the pants right side out. Hilarious! Imagine inverted creases on his pantalones.
It's like the movie Idiocracy. Truly a film written by a practical futurist. Sad to see it spread its tentacles into the aerospace and firearms industries (not directed at anyone in particular)...
[video]http://youtu.be/BBvIweCIgwk[/video]
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Nukes Wrote:Dare I ask? "Were you using a suppressor?" [laughing]
Are you running an AA bolt now?
Not exactly a buyer's market, a choice of easy to obtain bolts that break or long waits for bolts that don't break.
sorry i havent got back to this, i posted the last post on that stupid phone and i dont say much cause i dont text. anyhow although i wasnt using a suppressor when my first bolt broke, i had used one not long prior to it breaking. that said, i took home the rifle, cleaned it and installed another LBC bolt and after about 8 shots of factory ammo the second one broke, only one lug this time but still, broke. of course panic set in and after a short morning period, i obtained advise and a reciever facing tool and a new bolt (LBC). i havent had a problem since but i really dont feel confident with this bolt.
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Knock wood, dm. It's hard to get rid of a flinch, once they develop. The solution is to carry a spare bolt, if you aren't already. If it were duty critical, though, it would be different. It is one thing to have a malfunction at the range, another for it to occur in a critical situation. It would also really screw up your day, if it went down with an 8 or 10 point in the scope.
Once the weather clears, I am going to get some rounds down range. I suggest you do the same, and put some more distance between yourself and that bad taste. It might help improve that comfort level.
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