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Lead Chucker Wrote:Hey Tedward I put my dads 16" stoner together on the 5th and have fired 10 rounds of 90gn TNT hand loads down it to function check it. I couldn't load them to the 2.200" as the hand book calls for. I had to load them to 2.185" to keep them off the lands and give them a little jump, I just fired them to check function and adjust the adjustable gas block. I know a dummy round with 123gn amax was just barley touching lands at 2.235" before ever fired. I will measure today with the same dummy round and see if the throat smoothed out any and lengthed the throat.
I do have another stoner barrel though that has a real short throat that needs to go back for a throat reaming. It measures 2.212" with the same dummy round with the 123gn amax and it has 130 rounds down it.
So I guess your saying after 130 rounds, brake in is not working. That does suck...But it is what it is, send it back, I don't think they will have an issue fixing it if it has been used, I think there is no refund if mounted. I might have read that somewhere in the 600 pages amongst trends.
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walter Wrote:the reamer was made wrong. The throat is to short. There should be a recall. Sammi spec ammo should never touch the lands of a sammi chamber. There should be a free bore of .020 in all most all cases. End of story.
yep,,,,,,,,,,
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dammitman Wrote:yep,,,,,,,,,,
Starting to agree with this.
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Group buy for a SAAMI Grendel Reamer ?
I spoke to Lindsey today about my barrel, purchased from Midway. I related that I was seeing pressure signs with the factory 123 gr. A-Max ammunition (pierced primer and others were cratering). She asked for a detailed email of my concerns with a picture of the bolt, and what I was seeing with the cases. She said that she would discuss it with Mr. Satern and advise what I should do: polish or scrape. She indicated that I could send it in for the throat scraping if I wanted to do so. I did confirm that if scraped, it modifies the Grendel chamber by opening up the tapered section.
Edited to add: I included a picture of the bolt because they wanted to see which one of two I had that they had used. I also sent bolt length and bolt face dept measurements to check if my bolt was in or out of spec.
The whole reason why AA insisted on maintaining a strict adherence to the Grendel chamber design was so that things like this wouldn't happen. Bill A. wanted a customer to be able to drop factory ammo into a standard chamber and enjoy improved performance from the AR15.
It's out of his hands now that the Grendel has been SAAMI approved. After a lot of hard work and being accused of licensing for obscene profits, the cartridge steadily has taken off on its own.
I recently posted how the Grendel is much more appealing to manufacturers of both ammunition and firearms, since there is one industry-wide SAAMI standard, and the Maximum Average Pressure is very tame (52,000psi) compared to 5.56 NATO (62,000 psi), .308 Winchester (62,000psi), and most of the other center-fire rifle cartridges that commonly shoot spitzer-shaped bullets.
Lead Chucker
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Tedward Wrote:So I guess your saying after 130 rounds, brake in is not working. That does suck...But it is what it is, send it back, I don't think they will have an issue fixing it if it has been used, I think there is no refund if mounted. I might have read that somewhere in the 600 pages amongst trends.
Sorry I didn't get around to measuring the throat again today. Stared a week of midnights last night and the day didn't go well. As to the barrel that has been shot, it is very accurate with my hand loads with 90gn TNTs. Thats all that has been shot in it. I don't want a refund, just the throat lengthened to where it shoud be. As said, a dummy round with a 123gn amax hits the lands at 2.212" and that just isnt right. My Satern barrel chambers them easy at 2.260" with no rifle marks.
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Lead Chucker Wrote:As said, a dummy round with a 123gn amax hits the lands at 2.212" and that just isnt right. My Satern barrel chambers them easy at 2.260" with no rifle marks.
I'm confused, how does 1 company, provide two different brands of barrels, both supposedly cut with the same SAAMI spec reamer, but have two different throat measurements ? If everything is to SAAMI spec, why are the low end barrel chambers not the same as the high end ones ? If there are no problems why are they providing a solution ? Not trying to bash anyone just asking questions that raise concern for my friends and myself
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Sojorboy Wrote:I'm confused, how does 1 company, provide two different brands of barrels, both supposedly cut with the same SAAMI spec reamer, but have two different throat measurements ? If everything is to SAAMI spec, why are the low end barrel chambers not the same as the high end ones ? If there are no problems why are they providing a solution ? Not trying to bash anyone just asking questions that raise concern for my friends and myself
Sojor
IIRC, Satern Machining is using two different reamers for their two different lines.
There is not a "reamer spec"...just a SAAMI minimum chamber and maximum cartridge. It is up to the reamer toolmaker and chamberer to ensure chamber is reamed to SAAMI spec.
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Bjorne, thanks for the info. This leads me to ask why don't they use the Satern reamer on the Liberty barrels instead of trying to introduce a Grendel II chamber ?
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I have no idea how Satern has setup their manufacturing facility.
They may have two geographically separated facilities, one for Satern cut rifled barrels and another for Liberty button rifled mass production. Two reamers would make sense.
If in the same facility, perhaps they are busy enough on their cut rifled line.
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Any of a number of classic cost-cutting steps could explain the chambers.
One could also speculate that the somewhat worn reamers go to the mass-production line to save a few bucks.
Skipping or shortening the final finish would also explain things.
We need definitive statements from Satern.
The third party comments from one or two folks make for a bad climate. Satern may be innocent of ill-intent, but the resulting chaos is lousy just the same.
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02-08-2014, 03:44 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-08-2014, 04:14 PM by Sputnik.)
JASmith Wrote:Any of a number of classic cost-cutting steps could explain the chambers.
One could also speculate that the somewhat worn reamers go to the mass-production line to save a few bucks.
Skipping or shortening the final finish would also explain things.
We need definitive statements from Satern.
The third party comments from one or two folks make for a bad climate. Satern may be innocent of ill-intent, but the resulting chaos is lousy just the same.
I agree. The frustration level is like a roller coaster here. My idea of a fix would be to ream them with a checked, inspected, SAAMI, new reamer. I just posted this in another thread, but it is applicable here too:
"What a Fiasco! After almost 3 weeks after the first inadequate Satern response, and no response since, they are going to arbitrarily ream the barrels into something else, other than a Grendel? There is a difference between a fix and a change. It's almost like I ordered 22 long ammo, was sent 22 short, so the fix is to send me 22LR. At he end of the day I don't have 22 Long. So after the scraping, I am not going to have a Grendel?! I ordered a Grendel...How did RickOshay get his money back? Through the vendor? Maybe group buys do need some guidelines."
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Not convinced. Also, pictures in a few days? Grinding is going on now. I would expect a chamber reamed with a confirmed Grendel reamer, perhaps different than the one first used; not a re-chambering of an unknown wildcat.
XcountryRider Wrote:I gave rickOshay his money back and eat the shipping charges and checked his barrel and it was fine. It chambers Amax and SST and every handload i have to include 120gr TTSX, 129gr SST and 100gr Nosler without issue. I can post a video if you'd like. Lindsey at Satern tells me that in a few days they will post diagrams of there current chamber and the Grendel II so people can compare.
Ever since I saw your first posts about getting 2740-2820fps with a 120gr TSX, I literally cringed at the thought of what was going on at your reloading bench, so I'm not even sure what to make of any of the measurements you are talking about. I know rickOshay's character, and his competency to take detailed measurements. In effect, we have a situation where he clearly stated that the maximum COL's he discovered with his barrel are one set of data, and you are saying another.
I also noticed last year when FMSniper took his Liberty barrel COL measurements, and found that he could not seat the 123gr SST that far at all. Then we have your post where you specifically stated that:
XcountryRider Wrote:Ok guys stop the panic liberty barrels have always had a shorter chamber which means you can't load as far out but you get higher than average velocities as well. I've loaded from 100 to 140gr in two of my liberty barrels.
Jamming the projectile will produce these higher than average velocities, which pushes the pressures in excess of what is Maximum Average Pressure by SAAMI specs.
So it's pretty clear something fishy is going on, and you're on the wrong side of the facts here. It is very rare that we have these types of issues on the forum. I'm starting to lose track of how many forum members have contacted me personally to state that this wasn't the forum they joined, and are apprehensive about visiting or joining in discussions, when they see threads like this populating the top of the "What's New" list.
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No worries about this forum. All this too shall pass. This forum is more better than 99% available. Trust me. Really,,,,,
Lead Chucker
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Im glad to be a member here, the information here is 2nd to none and most of the time eveyone here is polite and cordial. I have been shooting since I was 5 years old and reloading since I was about 14, im 37 now. I dont know it all, still learn something new every day. I load for many different calibers and platforms. We all love the grendel or we wouldn't be here! I built mine a few years ago and want the best barrel I could get so I got one from Satern and would do it again. My dad is 64 years old and has always been a bolt gun guy, after playing with my grendel this past year he asked me to build him one. So we got him a Stoner barrel and started his build. Yes I was very concerned when I read here that the throats in these barrels were short, or could be short. So when I checked it it turned out to be a little short, not bad but short. I was really concerned when I checked my buddies Stoner barrel I built for him last year. It was really short. Im not bashing anyone or any barrel maker. We just want what we paid for, what is safe. There is no doubt the throats are short, and reaming them to a longer throat and saying its now something else isnt right. My cut rifle Satern barrel has a longer throat and its a SAAMI Grendel chamber.... so now is Satern going to call it a Grendel ll because its longer than the Liberty/Stoner? Im not bashing, just saying. The barrels are very accurate, I just want the throats to be right, not different. This is my dads first AR and I want him to enjoy it as much as I love mine.
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