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dammitman Wrote:do you really think that Larry Potterfield is gonna care about all this? really? like he is gonna look into what a a 6.5 grendel is and research the caliber and the barrel makers and what midway carrys and see this event and make a personal judgement? really? at best this is handed off to subordinates if at all and only after enough returns come in,,,,,,,really
Fact: This concerned long-time rifle shooter, on a specific date, E-mailed a formal complaint to the CEO of a company re an issue concerning the safety of a product they offer for sale --- we're talking about the integrity of the breech system of a high-powered precision shooting instrument, not plumbing supplies! In the event said issue is found to be relevant in any future related incident, that letter-complaint is evidence that the CEO was alerted to the problem, on a specific date. I neither requested, nor do I expect a response. I merely updated that a response had not been received.
Well stated, and thanks for doing this the right way!
I bought an 18" AR Stoner 6.5 Grendel barrel (Product # 586354) from Midway in November 2012. I got sidetracked on my build, didn't get the complete rifle together until a year later. Shot it for the first time in December 2013. Primers aren't cratered, but there is some flattening, and there are definitely ejector marks on the brass. I didn't check all the brass until after I got home from the range. I shot 6 rounds of Wolf Gold 120 gr soft point, and 10 rounds of Hornady 123 gr A-Max (factory load). After discovering the threads on this forum discussing the short throat issue with Liberty/Stoner barrels, I did the magic marker test on an Amax. It looks exactly like the pics Alligator posted in post #14 of this thread. When I chambered it by hand, pushing the bolt carrier closed by hand, there was resistance before the bolt closed completely. Ejecting the round took some persuasion. I guess this means this short throat issue has been around for a while?
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kd7sxa,
Wecome to the Forum.
Twelve days ago, January 30, 2014, it was reported on the now-closed Thread, AR-Stoner 6.5 Grendel barrel short chambered, that Satern would be posting a Message on their web page, "in the next day or two," http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...ed./page50 (Reply #497) . . .
"regarding everything that has been going on with the [6.5] Grendel barrels that were recently sent out, so please keep your eyes on our site." http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...ed./page52 (Reply #518).
Well, I've been checking the Satern website http://saternmachining.com/home, daily, to no avail: no formal word re the short-throated barrels. Add to this the fact that MidwayUSA.com continues to offer these AR-Stoner 6.5 Grendel Barrels (both 16" and 18" lengths) with Bolt --- despite their Customer Reviews citing the short-throated barrels --- and I must state that I'm concerned.
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02-12-2014, 02:21 AM
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2014, 02:23 AM by BjornF16.)
SHORT-N-SASSY Wrote:Well, I've been checking the Satern website http://saternmachining.com/home, daily, to no avail: no formal word re the short-throated barrels. Add to this the fact that MidwayUSA.com continues to offer these AR-Stoner 6.5 Grendel Barrels (both 16" and 18" lengths) with Bolt --- despite their Customer Reviews citing the short-throated barrels --- and I must state that I'm concerned.
I've been checking as well...very disappointed with Satern on how this has been handled. I guess XcountryRider was correct in stating that the Liberty "Grendel" barrels have been short chambered for some time.
kd7sxa, my advice to you would be find a gunsmith with access to a true Grendel reamer and have them modify your chamber. There's no telling what the end result will be for those barrels sent back to Satern and "scraped"...(just my $0.02)
...and welcome to the Horde! I see you are from MT...
LIFE member: NRA, TSRA, SAF, GOA
Defend the Constitution and our 2A Rights!
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I today E-mailed the following to Brownells Customer Service, Attn: Technical Support (Gun Tech):
"RE: 080-001-026WB,18" 6.5 Grendel Med Mid Gas Barrel Stainless Steel 1-8" Twist, @ $289.99.
"I just returned to a competitor, for a Refund, an AR-Stoner Barrel and Bolt AR-15 6.5 Grendel Medium M4 Contour 1 in 8" Twist 16" Stainless Steel.
"The problem: though the Bolt had the proper (for the 6.5 Grendel) 0.135" Bolt face depth, and the spring-loaded Bolt Carrier Group chambered Hornady factory-loaded 123-grain A-MAX ammunition (COL, 2.245"), unloading unfired cartridges from the chamber was not without some resistance, and the bullets exhibited pronounced abrasions approx. 0.075" - 0.080" forward of the case neck, at five points around the circumference (5R rifling), and fired cases exhibited primer cratering --- an indicator of excessive pressure. Unfortunately, mine is not an isolated case, the topic warranting extensive discussion on the 6.5 Grendel Forum.
"Clicking the "Q&A" following the "Details" of your offering clarifies that your Barrel comes with matching Bolt and that the chamber meets SAAMI Specifications. Question: Has the barrel supplier, or Brownells checked to confirm that chambering a factory-loaded cartridge will not jam the bullet into the rifling lands (with telltale abrasions) of the 6.5 Grendel Barrels presently offered? If so, I may consider ordering the above-referenced item. A definitive response is appreciated. Thank you.
"CC: The 6.5 Grendel Forum"
BjornF16 Wrote:I've been checking as well...very disappointed with Satern on how this has been handled. I guess XcountryRider was correct in stating that the Liberty "Grendel" barrels have been short chambered for some time.
kd7sxa, my advice to you would be find a gunsmith with access to a true Grendel reamer and have them modify your chamber. There's no telling what the end result will be for those barrels sent back to Satern and "scraped"...(just my $0.02)
...and welcome to the Horde! I see you are from MT...
I used to live in Montana, that's where I got my call sign. Now I'm in Oklahoma City. That's a good idea about finding a gunsmith, I'll check around and see what I can find locally.
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kd7sxa Wrote:I used to live in Montana, that's where I got my call sign. Now I'm in Oklahoma City. That's a good idea about finding a gunsmith, I'll check around and see what I can find locally.
Might want to update your address with FCC if you're still operating HAM...as for a gunsmith, it looks like Precision Firearms is stepping up to the plate and will ream a true Grendel chamber for $75 plus shipping...
LIFE member: NRA, TSRA, SAF, GOA
Defend the Constitution and our 2A Rights!
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SHORT-N-SASSY Wrote:I today E-mailed the following to Brownells Customer Service, Attn: Technical Support (Gun Tech):
"RE: 080-001-026WB,18" 6.5 Grendel Med Mid Gas Barrel Stainless Steel 1-8" Twist, @ $289.99.
"I just returned to a competitor, for a Refund, an AR-Stoner Barrel and Bolt AR-15 6.5 Grendel Medium M4 Contour 1 in 8" Twist 16" Stainless Steel.
"The problem: though the Bolt had the proper (for the 6.5 Grendel) 0.135" Bolt face depth, and the spring-loaded Bolt Carrier Group chambered Hornady factory-loaded 123-grain A-MAX ammunition (COL, 2.245"), unloading unfired cartridges from the chamber was not without some resistance, and the bullets exhibited pronounced abrasions approx. 0.075" - 0.080" forward of the case neck, at five points around the circumference (5R rifling), and fired cases exhibited primer cratering --- an indicator of excessive pressure. Unfortunately, mine is not an isolated case, the topic warranting extensive discussion on the 6.5 Grendel Forum.
"Clicking the "Q&A" following the "Details" of your offering clarifies that your Barrel comes with matching Bolt and that the chamber meets SAAMI Specifications. Question: Has the barrel supplier, or Brownells checked to confirm that chambering a factory-loaded cartridge will not jam the bullet into the rifling lands (with telltale abrasions) of the 6.5 Grendel Barrels presently offered? If so, I may consider ordering the above-referenced item. A definitive response is appreciated. Thank you.
"CC: The 6.5 Grendel Forum"
I today received the following E-mail response from Brownells Customer Service, Technical Support:
"Our barrels are machined with SAAMI spec reamers and checked with SAAMI spec gauges, not live ammunition.
"Eric Kiesler, Gun Technician, Brownells, Inc."
I've since E-mailed the following request:
"Dear Eric,
"Thank you for your response. In view of the fact that your barrels are not checked with factory-loaded cartridges, if I were to purchase a 6.5 Grendel Barrel with matching Bolt from Brownells, then, when chambering a factory-loaded Hornady 6.5 Grendel 123-grain A-MAX cartridge (a popular choice among 6.5 Grendel Enthusiasts) in said Brownells 6.5 Grendel Barrel, with Brownells matching Bolt, noted clear indications that the bullet was being jammed into the throat/lands, as was the case with your competitor's 6.5 Grendel Barrel & Bolt, would I be able to return the Brownells 6.5 Grendel Barrel and Bolt, for a complete Refund, including all shipping charges incurred, as I recently did with your competitor?
"CC: The 6.5 Grendel Forum"
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02-14-2014, 07:19 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-14-2014, 07:22 PM by SHORT-N-SASSY.)
SHORT-N-SASSY Wrote:I today sent the following E-mail to MidwayUSA.com Founder & CEO, Larry Potterfield:
"Subject: AR-Stoner Barrel and Bolt AR-15 6.5 Grendel Medium M4 Contour 1 in 8" Twist 16" Stainless Steel (MidwayUSA Product #: 884877)
"Dear Mr. Potterfield,
"I ordered the above-referenced item on December 24, 2013 and received it on January 3, 2014. During my initial shooting test, a few days later, using Hornady factory-loaded 6.5 Grendel 123-grain A-MAX ammunition (Lot #3132540, ordered from MidwayUSA), I took note of cratered primer pockets: a known indicator of high chamber pressure.
"I later checked the cartridge overall length (COL) of the Hornady 6.5 Grendel 123-grain A-MAX ammunition: 2.245". Using the spring-loaded Bolt-Carrier Group, I loaded cartridges into the chamber. I then extracted the unfired cartridges, by pulling on the Charging Handle, noting some resistance in the process of extraction. I examined the cartridges and found distinct abrasions on the bullets, approx. 0 075" - 0.080" forward of the case neck mouths, at 5 points around the circumference (the barrel is stamped, "6.5 GRENDEL 1-8 5R").
"Given the significantly increased head diameter of the 6.5 Grendel cartridge (over the .223/5.56x45mm cartridge), the use, of which, in the AR-15 action requires due diligence in maintaining safe operating pressures http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/forum/ar...thrust-faq, I'm concerned. Indeed, my experience parallels that of others. For example, following his 6.5 Grendel build, using the same barrel supplier http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...6.5G/page2 (See Reply #14, pics showing abrasions caused by the factory-loaded Hornady 123-grain SST bullets being jammed into the rifling lands, upon normal loading of the cartridges).
"In view of the above, I think it would be prudent for the barrel supplier to issue a recall of the short-throated 6.5 Grendel-chambered barrels. Fact: If the COL does not allow the bullet some initial free-bore, pressure spikes is the result, causing stress on the Bolt; Broken Bolt lugs are not an uncommon result, when handloading the 6.5 Grendel in the AR-15, with loads that exceed recommended maximum pressure levels.
"What to do? After agonizing over the dilemma, for some weeks, I've decided that I don't want to continue this game of Russian roulette. A broken Bolt lug, or worse, is not what a responsible shooter should have to contend with --- using factory-loaded ammunition, in a 6.5 Grendel SAAMI-chambered rifle! Accordingly, I've downloaded and printed-out the MidwayUSA Return Merchandise Form, followed the written instructions, therein, filled-out the Form --- checking "Refund" --- painstakingly repacked the Barrel and Bolt in the original triangular shipping carton and, using the MidwayUSA "ATTENTION: CUSTOMER RETURNS" shipping label, today returned the MidwayUSA Product #: 884877.
"Thank you for sharing this matter of concern.
"Sincerely,"
I today received the following E-mail response from MidwayUSA Customer Service:
"Dear [Customer's name],
"Thanks for your contact with Larry. I'm sorry it's taken a while to respond --- Larry's customer contact rate via email, voice mail and letter consistently runs well more that 2000 per week. He reads/listens to all his contacts, but obviously can't respond to them personally. Between this and his other obligations as CEO, it takes him a while to respond to customer inquiries. He asked me to follup up with you.
"I'm sorry to hear about that problem and I've forwarded your email to the appropriate Merchandising staff for review. I see we processed your return last week and I apologize for any inconvenience.
"Thanks for Your Business!
"Brian, MidwayUSA Customer Service"
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I would like to know brownells response as well. Keep us posted
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SHORT-N-SASSY Wrote:I today received the following E-mail response from Brownells Customer Service, Technical Support:
"Our barrels are machined with SAAMI spec reamers and checked with SAAMI spec gauges, not live ammunition.
"Eric Kiesler, Gun Technician, Brownells, Inc."
I've since E-mailed the following request:
"Dear Eric,
"Thank you for your response. In view of the fact that your barrels are not checked with factory-loaded cartridges, if I were to purchase a 6.5 Grendel Barrel with matching Bolt from Brownells, then, when chambering a factory-loaded Hornady 6.5 Grendel 123-grain A-MAX cartridge (a popular choice among 6.5 Grendel Enthusiasts) in said Brownells 6.5 Grendel Barrel, with Brownells matching Bolt, noted clear indications that the bullet was being jammed into the throat/lands, as was the case with your competitor's 6.5 Grendel Barrel & Bolt, would I be able to return the Brownells 6.5 Grendel Barrel and Bolt, for a complete Refund, including all shipping charges incurred, as I recently did with your competitor?
"CC: The 6.5 Grendel Forum"
I today received the following follow-up E-mail response:
"100% Satisfaction Guarantee on Everything We Sell. If you aren't completely, 100% satisfied with any purchase you received from Brownells, for any reason, at any time, return is for a full refund or exchange. No hassle, no problem. And, we won't bog you down in endless paperwork. Your complete satisfaction with each and every product we sell is what's most important to us.
"Eric Kiesler, Gun Technician, Brownels, Inc."
NOTE: In that today's E-mail was in response to a specific E-mail request (above), detailing "for a complete refund, including all shipping charges incurred, as I recently did with your competitor," I'm going to assume that Mr. Kiesler's "for a full refund" response means to include all shipping charges incurred.
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SHORT-N-SASSY Wrote:NOTE: In that today's E-mail was in response to a specific E-mail request (above), detailing "for a complete refund, including all shipping charges incurred, as I recently did with your competitor," I'm going to assume that Mr. Kiesler's "for a full refund" response means to include all shipping charges incurred.
You might want to double-check; I won't be surprised if by "complete return" they mean no restocking fees. Normally you'll get a full refund including the shipping (in which case they also pay for the return shipping) if they mess up the order. Just my 2c...
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The Brownell's 6.5 Grendel and bolt I saw looked very good. I can't wait till it's assembled and test fired, I think it will be a shooter. I had 3 different lots of factory 123 AMAX, Black Hills Les Baer 123 grain SMK and Wolf 123 grain MPT. I was able to easily insert each round into the chamber and turn the bolt with my fingers to insert and remove.
I also used a Stoney point chamber gauge to get the length for several bullets. The bolt face was .136 and the threads appear to 5/8-24. If I didn't already have a 16" and 20" 6.5 Grendels I'd buy the Brownell's 6.5 Grendel barrel/bolt.
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I today E-mailed the following Reply to Eric Kiesler, Technical Support, Brownells Customer Service:
"Subject: Brownells 080-001-026WB 18" 6.5 Grendel Medium Mid-length Gas Stainless Steel Barrel 1-8" Twist with Bolt, $289.99
"Dear Eric,
"Since your February 19, 2014 response, Satern Machining has posted a "6.5 GRENDEL ANNOUNCEMENT" on their website's Home Page, http://saternmachining.com, which I consider a blatant cop-out, in view of the hard truth of the matter. In short: I don't want a Barrel-Bolt combo manufactured/supplied by Satern Machining, under any condition.
"In view of the above, please clarify:
"1, Is Brownells Product #: 080-001-026WB manufactured/supplied by Satern Machining?
2, Does Brownells "100% Satisfaction Guarantee on Everything We Sell" include the Customer's option to return the item for a complete refund, including all shipping charges incurred?
"A definitive response is appreciated. Thank you.
"CC: The 6.5 Grendel Forum"
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Personally, reading the (yet another) Grendle copout on the Satern website makes me wonder how this guy stays in business. Seems just about everyone else can make Grendel barrels work. Satern & CSS have fights with AA, and then do their own thing. From there out there are issues with their barrels that others do not have. Les Baer did have an issue with early Hornady brass/ammo along with CSS, but seems to have resolved this.
His rep is too good for this to be competency issues.
My read: Satern & CSS know exactly how to prevent this type of issue, but chose not to just to stick it to AA and the Grendel due to bad blood. It's a small part of their business, and probably probably a pain. I don't think they wake up and gloat how can they stick it to AA. But if they encounter an issue, rather than figure out how to address it like they do for other calibers, they just blame it on AA. Then post a cop-out like the most recent one. Which is half their version of history and an implication that AA screwed up.
One of the advantages of the Grendel is the compound throat. It works well with many bullets and seating depths. I've seen this repeatedly with grendel barrels from 3 mfgs including AA.
So Satern is doing something different. Cut a different reamer, interpreted the prints differently or something. But other mfg's are not having issues with the throat.
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SHORT-N-SASSY Wrote:I today E-mailed the following Reply to Eric Kiesler, Technical Support, Brownells Customer Service:
"Subject: Brownells 080-001-026WB 18" 6.5 Grendel Medium Mid-length Gas Stainless Steel Barrel 1-8" Twist with Bolt, $289.99
"Dear Eric,
"Since your February 19, 2014 response, Satern Machining has posted a "6.5 GRENDEL ANNOUNCEMENT" on their website's Home Page, http://saternmachining.com, which I consider a blatant cop-out, in view of the hard truth of the matter. In short: I don't want a Barrel-Bolt combo manufactured/supplied by Satern Machining, under any condition.
"In view of the above, please clarify:
"1, Is Brownells Product #: 080-001-026WB manufactured/supplied by Satern Machining?
2, Does Brownells "100% Satisfaction Guarantee on Everything We Sell" include the Customer's option to return the item for a complete refund, including all shipping charges incurred?
"A definitive response is appreciated. Thank you.
"CC: The 6.5 Grendel Forum"
I today received the following E-mail response:
"Our guarantee would not include shipping charges unless we made some sort of error (wrong item in box, etc. ...), your other question is regarding proprietary information we do not divulge.
"Eric Kiesler, Gun Technician, Brownells, Inc."
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I today submitted the following E-mail-request to MidwayUSA.com Founder & C.E.O., Larry Potterfield:
"Subject: AR-Stoner Barrel and Bolt AR-15 6.5 Grendel Medium 1 in 8" Twist Stainless Steel, Product #: 884877 (16"), #: 586354 (18"), $299.99
"Dear Mr. Potterfield,
"Having previously shared with you my dilemma with having received a short-throated 6.5 Grendel Barrel from MidwayUSA.com (see my February 3, 2014 E-mail to you) --- and further concerned by the unsettling reports of short-throated 6.5 Grendel chambers issued by other concerned MidwayUSA.com Customers http://www.midwayusa.com/product/586354/...less-steel (See Customer Reviews, short-throated chambers) --- I would appreciate some clarification re the above-referenced Products, prior to moving ahead with a 6.5 Grendel Build.
"I've reviewed the 6.5 GRENDEL ANNOUNCEMENT: on the Satern Machining Home Page http://saternmachining.com, as well as the recent response from Hornady aired on our 6.5 Grendel Forum, "Due to the short nature of the Grendel chamber and throat, once you have the dimension set you can't change unless you go shorter. We have not changed our dimension for loaded ammunition or components, since we have started making these rounds. Thanks."
"In view of all the above, I submit that MidwayUSA.com Customers interested in the above-referenced AR-Stoner Barrel and Bolt AR-15 6.5 Grendel Products would find it helpful if MidwayUSA.com would clarify, in their "Product Information" section, which of the various throats (properly executed, please, and all allowing factory-loaded ammunition, without jamming bullets into the throat) is machined into these 6.5 Grendel SAAMI-chambered Barrels being offered: the preferred "compound" throat; the "Grendel II" throat, a scraped-out (sounds like a term used by the local landscaper) compound throat; some variation on the theme.
"Your assistance in this matter of concern is appreciated. Thank you.
"Sincerely,"
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I just sent my barrel back to Satern and had it returned within a week. I rebuilt my build and shot it this morning. I just posted my first 20 rounds through it... shoots a nice MOA group at 100 yards so far with SSTs. It shoots even better now that the throat was scraped....
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I today E-mailed an update to my March 10, 2014 E-mail-request to Larry Potterfield:
"Dear Mr. Potterfield,
"To update:
"1, A 6.5 Grendel Forum Member yesterday posted an image of two 6.5 Grendel chamber casts http://tinypic.com/r/hurrtd/8: Top, AR-Stoner chamber; Bottom, Precision Firearms chamber. I think it's fair to state that the difference is glaring, and explains the high pressure indicators reported by those who purchased 6.5 Grendel-chambered AR-Stoner Barrels.
"2, I recently posted an image on our 6.5 Grendel Forum which showed distinct abrasions around the circumference of the projectiles of Hornady factory-loaded 123-grain A-MAX cartridges, which were loaded into an AR-Stoner Barrel I received from MidwayUSA.com: clear indication of a short-throated chamber http://tinypic.com/r/1zup8m/8.
"In view of this new evidence, I submit that the 6.5 GRENDEL ANNOUNCEMENT on the Satern Machining Home Page is a farce. MidwayUSA.com Customers deserve better.
"Sincerely,"
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