AR-Stoner 6.5 Grendel barrel short chambered.

[XcountryRider]

Satern IS a member of the forum...they currently have a grand total of 5 posts.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...#post25311

Or were a member on the forum.

[bwaites]

Or were a member on the forum.

They were never very active on either the old forum or this one, posting very infrequently. Their membership here is still present, though they migh have forgotten the password, its been so long!

[XcountryRider]

Agreed - dmsims21 has hit the nail on the head. Let's see some range reports, along with the obligatory build pictures and targets for bragging rights! Just be safe about how you work up your loads, etc. No ER reports necessary or wanted.

I have found that my high loads are lower than others. I reach higher velocities and pressure quicker. For example my go to 123gr SST is 30.8gr of CFE225 loaded to 2.265in. That gives me 2590fps from my 18in barrel with a rifle length gas system (cut from a 24in barrel). In other words when working up a load your high load could be lower than what others are getting and take that into account when building up loads. Maybe we need a thread for building up loads with Liberty barrels?

[Sputnik]

Agreed - dmsims21 has hit the nail on the head. Let's see some range reports, along with the obligatory build pictures and targets for bragging rights! Just be safe about how you work up your loads, etc. No ER reports necessary or wanted.

There is a thread called Liberty group barrel buy build comments already activated a week before this one where members are kicking around options and ideas.

[Walter]

Why does it sound dangerous to work up loads for liberty barrels. Because when I forget somehow, I will put my Lilja loads in a Liberty barrel. ;-(

[JASmith]

Why does it sound dangerous to work up loads for liberty barrels. Because when I forget somehow, I will put my Lilja loads in a Liberty barrel. ;-(

Yours is an understandable concern, and is the reason many of us have focused on the issues with factory ammunition. Reloaders have multiple options to remedy challenges. It is also the reason for the mantra "know your chamber and create ammunition that is safe for that chamber.

Reloaders owning multiple rifles chambered for the same cartridge face a similar challenge to that faced by the commercial manufacturer. If the possibility that a load is safe in one chamber but questionable in another and the possibility of mixing rifles and ammunition exists, then the prudent course is to configure the ammunition to be safe in all rifles chambered in that cartridge.

The difference between the factory and the handloader is that, while the factory producer works to a standard chamber defined by SAAMI, the reloader can readily work with slight variations of chamber configuration.

To clarify, the core of the earlier debate was the use of SAAMI-compliant factory ammuntion in barrels stamped "6.5 Grendel" which requires that their chambers are also SAAMI-compliant.

The reloader has a lot more latitude, and can easily develop safe loads in chambers that don't quite meet those standards. That is as true of Liberty barrels as it is of any other barrel that comes close to, but might seem a little different than the standard.

The bigger challenge will be what happens if a non-standard chamber stamped "6.5 Grendel" gets transferred to someone who does not reload.

We do not know, but the debate suggests the possibility, that some barrels don't comply with the standard. That is why we need to give folks time and space to sort things out.

In the mean time, know your chamber, load sound ammunition, and shoot a lot!

[HuntTXhogs]

Based on my experiences with the 6.5 Grendel and variants - in my opinion I still approach the caliber as a Wildcat cartridge.

The only good experience I have had and seen by direct observation of other shooters is that the Alexander Arms weapons are safe given all the variables.

I don't think that is by happenstance either, I hope everyone stays safe and shoots well!!!

HTXH

[Walter]

I guess I thought that I was getting 3 barrels that were SAMMI 6.5 grendel, not wildcats. My bad.

[Tedward]

I guess I thought that I was getting 3 barrels that were SAMMI 6.5 grendel, not wildcats. My bad.

Opinion, not what it is. Everyone can read thru the lines, post what ever they want but the fact is the Liberty barrels are reamed with SAAMI approved measurement reamers.

Has anyone called another manufacture and shared the measurements that are on the trend and see if they made any changes to make there barrels not to have a tight throat? Precision Firearms, Lilja ect....

Maybe its the rifling, 5R, along with the chamber that increases pressure. Look at the whole picture not what you want to see or hear.

[Walter]

Ted you said you have Hornady overall case gage. You should have both a Lilja and a Liberty barrel. Please measure the OAL of the chamber of the two barrels and report back.

[JASmith]

Opinion, not what it is. Everyone can read thru the lines, post what ever they want but the fact is the Liberty barrels are reamed with SAAMI approved measurement reamers.

Has anyone called another manufacture and shared the measurements that are on the trend and see if they made any changes to make there barrels not to have a tight throat? Precision Firearms, Lilja ect....

Maybe its the rifling, 5R, along with the chamber that increases pressure. Look at the whole picture not what you want to see or hear.

In the interest of clarity, I submit that the reamers were almost certainly cut by someone who certified, either formally or informally, that the dimensions comform to SAAMI standards. That is different than "SAAMI" approved.

Second, the smoke and thunder in this thread surrounds just one barrel make and, possibly just one lot. No one appears to have had reason to check with other barrel manufacturers because they have either not given problems or the issues were rectified.

We have had several people already say "Give Satern the space needed to sort things out." To my knowledge, they have not yet been afforded the opportunity to do so. Instead we have a bunch of folks jumping around in attempts to through blame everywhere without truly thinking through the issues, much less the consequences of their words.

We have way too many accusations and defensive remarks on this thread already. How about we cease fire and give them that space.

[Tedward]

Walter,
My daughter just called and my barrel got dropped of by the Big Brown truck today, its at the house so I'll be checking it once I get home. I do have the Manufactured Hornady OAL case gauge but when I got it I never really needed to take any measurements. My friend has been reloading for me and just using the data provided in the Grendel Reloading Hand Book I got from LRRPF52. I was planning on just using the case with a bolt as lots of guys are doing on the forum and let the lands push it back. Since then I read the posts and realized the correct way it is to be used is with the tool and insert the case, then push the projectile forward till resistance is felt, then remove the case with the projectile. .

After reading all of this info over the last week, I broke down and ordered one of the OAL from Brownells Saturday. I'll have it in a couple days.http://www.brownells.com/reloading/measu...35663.aspx

In the mean time I will check if a factory round chambers by hand into my Lilja Barrel and see if it is doing the same thing as my Liberty and Brownells barrels are doing. Both of them do not letting the factory round chamber by hand so the bolt will lock. This weekend weather was very bad, well to me it was around 10 degrees, so I didn't venture out to the garage to do some shooting as planned.

I did need to fire a few rounds and tested a couple brand new Liberty Barrels and no issue on cambering or firing them.

I'll let you know if the Lilja does the same or if the more expensive hand lapped barrel lets the rounds drop in and out without resistance to make the bolt lock by hand.

[Tedward]

In the interest of clarity, I submit that the reamers were almost certainly cut by someone who certified, either formally or informally, that the dimensions comform to SAAMI standards. That is different than "SAAMI" approved.

Second, the smoke and thunder in this thread surrounds just one barrel make and, possibly just one lot. No one appears to have had reason to check with other barrel manufacturers because they have either not given problems or the issues were rectified.

We have had several people already say "Give Satern the space needed to sort things out." To my knowledge, they have not yet been afforded the opportunity to do so. Instead we have a bunch of folks jumping around in attempts to through blame everywhere without truly thinking through the issues, much less the consequences of their words.

We have way too many accusations and defensive remarks on this thread already. How about we cease fire and give them that space.

Yup, ok, not sure and ok again.

Got it.

[FlatsFlite]

How about we cease fire and give them that space.

Amen

[BjornF16]

Opinion, not what it is. Everyone can read thru the lines, post what ever they want but the fact is the Liberty barrels are reamed with SAAMI approved measurement reamers.

Has anyone called another manufacture and shared the measurements that are on the trend and see if they made any changes to make there barrels not to have a tight throat? Precision Firearms, Lilja ect....

Maybe its the rifling, 5R, along with the chamber that increases pressure. Look at the whole picture not what you want to see or hear.

I'm guessing you haven't read all the comments in this thread thoroughly. LRRPF52 already reported no issues with Lilja barrels he recently received and with a SATERN Spartan barrel (not to mention his other barrels) he has on hand; I have reported no issues with my SATERN Spartan barrel; others have reported similar. The issue is obviously not with 5R rifling as the SATERN Spartan barrels are 5R barrels. The issues have been with Liberty barrels and are most likely due to a rough throat. The comments I posted by Bill A. from another thread essentially verified what we have been seeing: Rough throats/rifling on Liberty barrels that lead to quick/higher pressure rises, higher velocities, and high ES.

Why do we keep repeating the cycle?

In looking at the Manson reamer specs (page 8, Grendel Reloading Handbook, Vol 1), Manson lists a SAAMI spec of .153" "free bore" (really isn't a true free bore since it has angled throat walls that effectively act to transition the lands within this "free bore" area). Not being lapped/polished, I'm guessing there are quite a few burrs in this area in addition to rough rifling in the Liberty barrel since they are an economy button rifled barrel that has not been lapped.

BTW...SAAMI doesn't approve reamers, they approve specs. It is up to reamer manufacturer and barrel chamberer to verify the reamer is within that spec. So it really is just "opinion" at this point that the reamer in question is within spec, particularly when SATERN Spartan chambers don't have this same issue. (My guess is it is merely rough chamber/throat/rifling as I've stated previously).

I like SATERN Spartan barrels...they are shooters to be sure. SATERN machining has always treated me good when I could get hold of them (they were harder to get hold of on the phone than AA, in my humble experience). But I'm a little disappointed that the first reported words from Steve Satern were to accuse AA ammunition of being out of spec (at least what was attributed to him via others on the forum). I will further note that Bill A. has only had good things to say publicly about SATERN barrels as evidenced by my earlier post quoting Bill A.

[Tedward]

Walter,
My daughter just called and my barrel got dropped of by the Big Brown truck today, its at the house so I'll be checking it once I get home. I do have the Manufactured Hornady OAL case gauge but when I got it I never really needed to take any measurements. My friend has been reloading for me and just using the data provided in the Grendel Reloading Hand Book I got from LRRPF52. I was planning on just using the case with a bolt as lots of guys are doing on the forum and let the lands push it back. Since then I read the posts and realized the correct way it is to be used is with the tool and insert the case, then push the projectile forward till resistance is felt, then remove the case with the projectile. .

After reading all of this info over the last week, I broke down and ordered one of the OAL from Brownells Saturday. I'll have it in a couple days.http://www.brownells.com/reloading/measu...35663.aspx

In the mean time I will check if a factory round chambers by hand into my Lilja Barrel and see if it is doing the same thing as my Liberty and Brownells barrels are doing. Both of them do not letting the factory round chamber by hand so the bolt will lock. This weekend weather was very bad, well to me it was around 10 degrees, so I didn't venture out to the garage to do some shooting as planned.

I did need to fire a few rounds and tested a couple brand new Liberty Barrels and no issue on cambering or firing them.

I'll let you know if the Lilja does the same or if the more expensive hand lapped barrel lets the rounds drop in and out without resistance to make the bolt lock by hand.

Yup, Lilja chamber let a factory A-max drop right in and bolt locked by hand, what a wonderful thing....

[Roguer]

So what is answer to all this from Stoner then?

[cory]

So what is answer to all this from Stoner then?

There is no Stoner, it's a house brand of Midway's. The stoner barrels and liberty barrels are produced by Satern. We're waiting to hear from them. If factory rounds chamber in your barrel and extract with little or no force, go shoot.

[Roguer]

Oh OK After over 400 posts I was wondering why people were calling Satern when I thought a Stoner made them.

[Lead Chucker]

Oh OK After over 400 posts I was wondering why people were calling Satern when I thought a Stoner made them.

Liberty & Stoner are the same barrel. Both are chambered from Satern. Midway carries the barrels as their house brand as Stoner.