AR-Stoner 6.5 Grendel barrel short chambered.

[babaganoush]

If nobody else will say it, I will. It seems to me that the question surrounding the short throated barrels has evolved from "You must be mistaken, and performed your measurements incorrectly" to "They cut the chambers/throats to SAAMI specs, and the ammo might be the problem" to "Just shoot it and see if it gets better".

Does that sum it up for everyone?

It does not sound like the issue has been, or will be addressed by the maker of these barrels. And having a few posters insisting that we lower our standards of what to expect from a reputable manufacturer does not leave a good taste in my mouth.

[JASmith]

babaganoush summed up the previous three hundred fifty nine posts very nicely.

Remember, it is the weekend, and we do not expect a response from the folks at Satern /Liberty until at least Monday. In their defense, let's avoid condemning them on the basis of a few inappropriate posts advocating questionable safety practices.

I can immediately state, however, that I am seriously troubled that at least one of the posters advocating questionable safety practices may also be firearms dealers or gunsmiths.

[XcountryRider]

If nobody else will say it, I will. It seems to me that the question surrounding the short throated barrels has evolved from "You must be mistaken, and performed your measurements incorrectly" to "They cut the chambers/throats to SAAMI specs, and the ammo might be the problem" to "Just shoot it and see if it gets better".

Does that sum it up for everyone?

It does not sound like the issue has been, or will be addressed by the maker of these barrels. And having a few posters insisting that we lower our standards of what to expect from a reputable manufacturer does not leave a good taste in my mouth.

I don't think anyone noticed because most people buying AR stoner barrels were just getting to the caliber and weren't reloading. They were shooting factory Hornady and Wolf ammo and it was working great. Several folks had noticed that Liberty barrels could not load ammo out as far as others including myself but i didn't care because my velocities were awesome with what i could load to. I didn't care because my velocities are awesome and my accuracy was as good as you could ask for from a production barrel. Not until someone tried to load factory AA ammo did anyone see it as an issue. AA ammo is almost never in stock and over priced so hard to get butt hurt that you have to press it into the case farther to shoot it because why buy it at all?

I see 3 types on here.
Those that are concerned they have a problem.
Those that are fine with the throat and like it
Those trying to stir up **** about Satern (Steve Satern and Bill Alexander have a history).

[Lead Chucker]

I measured my OAL to the lands using a dowel rod from the bolt face to where the bullet just touches the lands again today using 4 different bullets. Then used the same bullets to measure my dads 16" Stoner barrel. His was shorter on all bullets. The 16" stoner barrel i built for a friend in 2012 also has a shorter throat than mine & my dads. A 90gn TNT measures 2.227" in my 18" Satern, 2.190 in my dads Stoner, and 2.154" in my friends Stoner built a year ago. So YES the Stone/Liberty barrels are throated shorter, a year ago same as today. My friends Stoner shoots lights out with no pressure signs with my reloads. So my take on the stoner barrels are they have always been cut this way.

[woohoo]

babaganoush summed up the previous three hundred fifty nine posts very nicely.

Remember, it is the weekend, and we do not expect a response from the folks at Satern /Liberty until at least Monday. In their defense, let's avoid condemning them on the basis of a few inappropriate posts advocating questionable safety practices.

I can immediately state, however, that I am seriously troubled that at least one of the posters advocating questionable safety practices may also be firearms dealers or gunsmiths.

I've shot enough and developed enough wildcats over the last 30 years to know jamming the bullets in the lands a little isn't going to raise pressures of a cartridge producing 52,000psi enough to do anything. We shoot the 6BRX at 62000 psi with 105s jammed into the lands. Edward has already shot them with no problems. If your scared to shoot them then return the barrel or push the bullets back in the case so they can be shot.

[Tedward]

What about all the people who ARE NOT reading this Forum and using AR-Stoner Grendel Barrels? If they are not having an issue using factory ammo is there an issue or just an onion of what you think is right and wrong with the chamber, throat or lands. What ever it is I have not heard of ONE mishap. If there was an issue, Midway would most likely put out a recall on the product they are selling.

I have hundreds of rounds of AA Factory ammo and it has the same symptoms as Hornady Factory ammo in this chamber, it will not go in the chamber all the way by hand on a new barrel. I don't disagree with that.

[Tedward]

babaganoush summed up the previous three hundred fifty nine posts very nicely.

Remember, it is the weekend, and we do not expect a response from the folks at Satern /Liberty until at least Monday. In their defense, let's avoid condemning them on the basis of a few inappropriate posts advocating questionable safety practices.

I can immediately state, however, that I am seriously troubled that at least one of the posters advocating questionable safety practices may also be firearms dealers or gunsmiths.

If you don't like reading all the posts I guess you can turn it off but since your a moderator, you get the joy of a controversial trend. Good or bad, issue or no issue??? Sorry post #366

[XcountryRider]

I measured my OAL to the lands using a dowel rod from the bolt face to where the bullet just touches the lands again today using 4 different bullets. Then used the same bullets to measure my dads 16" Stoner barrel. His was shorter on all bullets. The 16" stoner barrel i built for a friend in 2012 also has a shorter throat than mine & my dads. A 90gn TNT measures 2.227" in my 18" Satern, 2.190 in my dads Stoner, and 2.154" in my friends Stoner built a year ago. So YES the Stone/Liberty barrels are throated shorter, a year ago same as today. My friends Stoner shoots lights out with no pressure signs with my reloads. So my take on the stoner barrels are they have always been cut this way.

Yep nothing new they have always been this way and they shot great and no incidents to speak of. This is a non event hyped up for the fear factor.

[JASmith]

I don't think anyone noticed because most people buying AR stoner barrels were just getting to the caliber and weren't reloading. They were shooting factory Hornady and Wolf ammo and it was working great. Several folks had noticed that Liberty barrels could not load ammo out as far as others including myself but i didn't care because my velocities were awesome with what i could load to.

...in spite of multiple posters telling you and the rest of us that you are paying a price in long term reliability and safety by the excessive pressures generated.

I didn't care because my velocities are awesome and my accuracy was as good as you could ask for from a production barrel. Not until someone tried to load factory AA ammo did anyone see it as an issue. AA ammo is almost never in stock and over priced so hard to get butt hurt that you have to press it into the case farther to shoot it because why buy it at all?

Hornady ammunition plays a prominent role in the posts. Further that ammunition works just fine in all other barrels. I don't recall AA ammunition having been mentioned as giving a problem in these probably out of spec barrels. If built to the same standards, the ammunition has a very good chance of doing the same regardless of who made it.

I see 3 types on here.
Those that are concerned they have a problem.
Those that are fine with the throat and like it
Those trying to stir up **** about Satern (Steve Satern and Bill Alexander has a history).

That almost sums it up, but two types were left out:

[INDENT][I]Those trying to stir up **** about the Grendel
Those trying to stir up **** about Alexander Arms
Those attempting to keep the conversation on a professional and technical level.[/I][/INDENT]

Advocating unsafe practices, in particular ammunition jammed into a too-tight or too short throat, carries with the advocacy a huge liability risk for even private citizens.

Firearms dealers and gunsmiths who engage in this form of advocacy or denial demonstrate unprofessional conduct and a disregard towards public safety and an even greater liability risk.

I have regarded comments attributed to Steve Satern by others as second-hand and not necessarily accurate. In any event, they are the typical first responses to a challenge to the integrity of one's product. Remember, just the shipping costs needed to return all of those alleged out-of-spec barrels will overwhelm his profit margin. Doing a lot of work to adjust the throats, if that is determined to be the problem, will cost even more. It is reasonable for a businessman to be hesitant to immediately launch a massive recall. In the end, however, that may be what is needed.

I repeat, we need to give Satern the space to determine a course of action.

I hope for a pleasant surprise sometime during the first part of the week.

[JASmith]

I've shot enough and developed enough wildcats over the last 30 years to know jamming the bullets in the lands a little isn't going to raise pressures of a cartridge producing 52,000psi enough to do anything. We shoot the 6BRX at 62000 psi with 105s jammed into the lands. Edward has already shot them with no problems. If your scared to shoot them then return the barrel or push the bullets back in the case so they can be shot.

Have you ever wondered why the 51,800 psi MAOP exists for the Grendel, especially when one can get a hundred or so mopre FPS by going to 55,000 psi or even 60,000 psi?

It is wrapped up in the fundamental constraints of the AR15 bolt and receiver design, and the pressure limit was established to prevent fatigue fractures leading to broken bolts. Advocating routine operation above these pressures does carry a liability risk, especially if a bolt breaks or even an unrelated injury involving a rifle used in the suggested manner.

A few of us have advocated doing one's homework on why the Grendel is what it is, and why it has done so well with barrels using appropriate ammunition.

Many years as a wildcatter should make the learning process easy.

[NugginFutz]

I measured my OAL to the lands using a dowel rod from the bolt face to where the bullet just touches the lands again today using 4 different bullets. Then used the same bullets to measure my dads 16" Stoner barrel. His was shorter on all bullets. The 16" stoner barrel i built for a friend in 2012 also has a shorter throat than mine & my dads. A 90gn TNT measures 2.227" in my 18" Satern, 2.190 in my dads Stoner, and 2.154" in my friends Stoner built a year ago. So YES the Stone/Liberty barrels are throated shorter, a year ago same as today. My friends Stoner shoots lights out with no pressure signs with my reloads. So my take on the stoner barrels are they have always been cut this way.

Which would seem to remove the "Shoot it and See if It Gets Better" angle.

[tango29]

I dont have a dog in this fight. I Did NOT get in on the group buy of the liberty barrels or buy an AR Stoner Barrel from Midway. I purchased an AA 24 inch barrel/Bolt/Ammo from and have shot at 3+ cases of AA Branded 123 gr Lapua Scenar ammo without any issue. I have also shot over 350 rounds of Hornady 123 Gr AMAX without issue.

However as a responsible consumer and avid shooter I am not and would not put myself or my kids or anyone in danger by using a potentially dangerous product. It is up to the individial consumer to determine whether the product is safe for their particular use.

However, had I purchased a Liberty/AR Stoner barrel with issues as described in this thread I would certainly research the issue and ask a lot of seeminly stupid questions from people a lot more knowledgeable than me. I would google and search for solutions for the problem I am having on as many forums as possible not just this forum.

I thought the purpose of this forum was to further the cartridge and help each other. There is a range of knowledge on this board from zero to extremely knowledgeable. Of course there is going to be misinformed comments and questions but isnt that the purpose of this board is to further everyones knowledge and further the accepatance and usage of the cartridge in the first place and not talk down to the less knowledgeable but to expand ones knowledge.

I have heard of the that satern machining was one of the best barrel makers around for a lot of years. My concern is that with such a good reputation, you would expect Satern Machining to produce a superior product whether it was button rifled or cut rifled.

If they produced a bad batch of barrels then that needs to be investigated to determine whether that assumption is valid or not. If a manufacturer is making a product that has the potential to kill and maim, I sure would want to be sure that it was safe to use. whether the problem be the Barrel, the Ammo, or User Error we all need to make sure the product or techniques we are using are safe.

People lighten up and dont be so condesending to the less knowledgable. We all have varying levels of knowledge and are all trying to learn and be safe as avid shooters.

Just my .02 cents

TANGO29

[JASmith]

I measured my OAL to the lands using a dowel rod from the bolt face to where the bullet just touches the lands again today using 4 different bullets. Then used the same bullets to measure my dads 16" Stoner barrel. His was shorter on all bullets. The 16" stoner barrel i built for a friend in 2012 also has a shorter throat than mine & my dads. A 90gn TNT measures 2.227" in my 18" Satern, 2.190 in my dads Stoner, and 2.154" in my friends Stoner built a year ago. So YES the Stone/Liberty barrels are throated shorter, a year ago same as today. My friends Stoner shoots lights out with no pressure signs with my reloads. So my take on the stoner barrels are they have always been cut this way.

Can we compare measurements in our barrels with the recommended COL in the load handbooks?

In the present case, both Hodgdon and Alexander Arms load data recommends a COL of 2.200" for the 90 gr TNT in the Grendel.

[woohoo]

Have you ever wondered why the 51,800 psi MAOP exists for the Grendel, especially when one can get a hundred or so mopre FPS by going to 55,000 psi or even 60,000 psi?

It is wrapped up in the fundamental constraints of the AR15 bolt and receiver design, and the pressure limit was established to prevent fatigue fractures leading to broken bolts. Advocating routine operation above these pressures does carry a liability risk, especially if a bolt breaks or even an unrelated injury involving a rifle used in the suggested manner.

A few of us have advocated doing one's homework on why the Grendel is what it is, and why it has done so well with barrels using appropriate ammunition.

Many years as a wildcatter should make the learning process easy.

No, I have never wondered why.
I'm guessing you have never broken a bolt or knows what happens when one does break. Back in the 80s and 90s we broke 5.56 bolts pretty often until we could get Carp 158 bolts from Colt or Microbest. I'm not learning much about the Grendel these days, 2007 was all I needed. We started machining stronger bolts and don't worry about that AA imposed 52,000psi max.
We've been shooting the 6mm BRX at 60-62k psi which is quite a bit faster than the Grendel in the same receivers and carriers that are used with the Grendel. No one seems to be breaking extensions , or receivers or carriers. Are they still breaking Grendel bolts?
Gosh, breaking bolts and all this stuff about ammo not fitting in the chambers doesn't sound too good does it?

[XcountryRider]

No, I have never wondered why.
I'm guessing you have never broken a bolt or knows what happens when one does break. Back in the 80s and 90s we broke 5.56 bolts pretty often until we could get Carp 158 bolts from Colt or Microbest. I'm not learning much about the Grendel these days, 2007 was all I needed. We started machining stronger bolts and don't worry about that AA imposed 52,000psi max.
We've been shooting the 6mm BRX at 60-62k psi which is quite a bit faster than the Grendel in the same receivers and carriers that are used with the Grendel. No one seems to be breaking extensions , or receivers or carriers. Are they still breaking Grendel bolts?
Gosh, breaking bolts and all this stuff about ammo not fitting in the chambers doesn't sound too good does it?

No broken bolts in Liberty barrels or barrels blowing up are anything.

[Tedward]

Can we compare measurements in our barrels with the recommended COL in the load handbooks?

In the present case, both Hodgdon and Alexander Arms load data recommends a COL of 2.200" for the 90 gr TNT in the Grendel.

Who made the handbook and under what authority? Did they check with SAAMI specifications to come up with what is ok? Just wondering who has authority over anything. It sounds like nothing but opinions is driving the trend.

I think this trend of a possible chamber issue has gone off the tracks and down the tube.....

[woohoo]

No broken bolts in Liberty barrels or barrels blowing up are anything.

The way JA talks seems like they would be blowing up all over the place. I know you and Edward have been shooting them without issue and if the bolt will lock the bullets aren't in the lands hard enough to make much difference. If the bolt wouldn't close it may be a different story.
All of you guys are still here aren't you? The sky isn't falling is it? Good, must be time to go shoot.

[45r]

The lands look like they are shallow from the start because of the compound throat.
Seems like the slight gradual engraving of the bullet won't have much of an effect on pressure.
If factory loads will extract without being sticky and too much engraving into the bullet it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
If the bullet is close or kisses the lands slightly isn't that what the chamber is designed to do.

[JASmith]

Does one want to be dragged into court because he tells the world that a rifle not conforming to SAAMI specs is "perfectly safe with factory ammunition" and that rifle later goes kaboom for any reason?

We are seeing a lot of misquoting or misinterpretation of what has been written.

Credibility sucks when that happens, and all the smoke suggests that visible flames are just around the corner.

Time to stick to facts and to cool things down.

[XcountryRider]

Does one want to be dragged into court because he tells the world that a rifle not conforming to SAAMI specs is "perfectly safe with factory ammunition" and that rifle later goes kaboom for any reason?

We are seeing a lot of misquoting or misinterpretation of what has been written.

Credibility sucks when that happens, and all the smoke suggests that visible flames are just around the corner.

Time to stick to facts and to cool things down.

Prove its not SAMMI spec and stop assuming.