AR-Stoner 6.5 Grendel barrel short chambered.

[BjornF16]

My Satern Spartan fired brass is roughly .300" neck diameter...maybe .299"

[WildBill3/75]

To confirm. It is on more than just these barrels.

I just measured my Satern cut rifle barrel with hornady brass/123gr amax my OAL to the lands is 2.230.

I'm getting 1/2moa accuracy with Factory ammo that is loaded at 2.245 OAL...

So if i'm jamming 15thou into the lands whatever. 1/2 moa was my goal and I got there with factory ammo in a gas gun. Note--I have no problems with extracting chambered live rounds but did see rifling scores on the jacket.

My feeling at this point and having already sent this barrel back once to get the extension fixed is.... Why "fix" what isn't broke.

Does this **** with my reloading? Yes...now all my loads with 8208XBR will be compressed and jammed into the lands. **** it.

[tango29]

The biggest issue of group buys is who will take ownership of inevitable problems. Every manufacturer has things that slip by them, no matter how extensive their QC and TQM programs are. What that manufacturer does when a problem is identified is what reputation is built on, in addition to the quality of the product, delivery time, consistency, etc.

I'm quite confident that Satern/Liberty will take care of any issues that may be present in some of the barrels. They are not a fly-by-night company.

I wonder if Satern could verify the difference between the first barrels made with the reamer used and the ones sent for the group buy. Then we could see if the reamer is worn down by the time the group buy barrels were made and that would indicate that the reamer was worn down and out of spec. Just my .02 cents.

[BjornF16]

To confirm. It is on more than just these barrels.

I just measured my Satern cut rifle barrel with hornady brass/123gr amax my OAL to the lands is 2.230.

I'm getting 1/2moa accuracy with Factory ammo that is loaded at 2.245 OAL...

So if i'm jamming 15thou into the lands whatever. 1/2 moa was my goal and I got there with factory ammo in a gas gun. Note--I have no problems with extracting chambered live rounds but did see rifling scores on the jacket.

My feeling at this point and having already sent this barrel back once to get the extension fixed is.... Why "fix" what isn't broke.

Does this **** with my reloading? Yes...now all my loads with 8208XBR will be compressed and jammed into the lands. **** it.

Doesn't necessarily mean you are .015" "into the lands"...you may be getting resistance from the throat, depending upon how hard you are pushing the bullet out of the OAL gauge...if you don't have any problems extracting these rounds then I doubt you are really .015" into the lands.

[Tedward]

Did you ask Satern how the chambers of Liberty barrels differ from those of their Satern-brand cut-rifled barrels? Is it the same reamer, or a different one? Same procedure, or a different one? Was Satern using an AA reamer when a business relationship existed between the two companies, and Satern now uses a different reamer, or a different type from a different supplier?

I ask these questions because I've never seen a complaint regarding Satern cut-rifled barrels. I think it would be interesting to know, from a manufacturing perspective, how the chambers differ between their cut-rifled and button-rifled barrels. It would seem that the chambers are cut differently, or something changed along the way at some point. But that's just speculation in an effort to understand the reported issues...

ETA- Are Satern and Liberty barrels made under the same roof, or different locations? Also, if the reamers and / or techniques are different, it would be interesting to use the "Satern" reamer / technique on a Liberty barrel, then examine the results.

Steve said he sands to 180 grit to remove the machining marks and that's it. Yes he could polish it and spend more time but it will cost more. He didn't say if it was the same reamer used on the button cut as the rifle cut so I'll ask that on Monday.

The print I was looking at is the JGS copy and it has AA's name in the left corner. I tried to upload it but the system here won't let it for some reason. I emptied almost all of my pictures and it still wont work. It matches the one J.A. Smith put the link up on.

AA never made a reamer, they had them made just like Satern has them made today, by PPG. Steve has been talking to Dave Kiff at PPG. You will hear more next week because this is not the end of the topic for Satern. Steve knows what your looking at and said the barrels need broke in and it will be fine. They use a go/no-go gauge on every chamber and the issue you think there seeing is the throat being tight.

All I can do is tell you what he said today and he is very confident if you drop the bolt catch, it will chamber and fire. Then it will break in and get looser. It takes at least 25 rounds on a match barrel till a barrel is even broke in and not being hand lapped, you need to run more ammo to get it working smoothly.

[WildBill3/75]

Doesn't necessarily mean you are .015" "into the lands"...you may be getting resistance from the throat, depending upon how hard you are pushing the bullet out of the OAL gauge...if you don't have any problems extracting these rounds then I doubt you are really .015" into the lands.

I use a resized piece of brass with a slightly loose neck with the 123amax and feed by hand with the ejector removed averaged over 10 tries. I was getting pretty much the same every time...average was 2.230.

Using this method with the PF barrel I had I was getting 2.271 as an average.

The rifling marks on the ogive don't lie. Granted I did need a magnifying glass to see them well.(might not be from lands as they are very superficial and the factory ammo is easily extractable)

Unrelated but my fired cases expand to .300, I saw you were wondering about that earlier...

[Tedward]

To confirm. It is on more than just these barrels.

I just measured my Satern cut rifle barrel with hornady brass/123gr amax my OAL to the lands is 2.230.

I'm getting 1/2moa accuracy with Factory ammo that is loaded at 2.245 OAL...

So if i'm jamming 15thou into the lands whatever. 1/2 moa was my goal and I got there with factory ammo in a gas gun. Note--I have no problems with extracting chambered live rounds but did see rifling scores on the jacket.

My feeling at this point and having already sent this barrel back once to get the extension fixed is.... Why "fix" what isn't broke.

Does this **** with my reloading? Yes...now all my loads with 8208XBR will be compressed and jammed into the lands. **** it.

Your not touching the lands, you need to look at the drawing please, posted link by JA Smith earlier. It's the compounded throat. The lands are out further on the bullet.

[Tedward]

Doesn't necessarily mean you are .015" "into the lands"...you may be getting resistance from the throat, depending upon how hard you are pushing the bullet out of the OAL gauge...if you don't have any problems extracting these rounds then I doubt you are really .015" into the lands.

Again, no lands about it. Get a bore scope. Your getting things confused. Finally got the drawing to take.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4473[/ATTACH]

[BjornF16]

Again, no lands about it. Get a bore scope. Your getting things confused. Finally got the drawing to take.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4473[/ATTACH]

I'm not confused about anything. If one is using a Hornady OAL gauge and pushing the bullet, they may be getting "resistance" from the compound throat or the actual rifling lands...depends upon how hard they push. One cannot definitively say they are ".015" into the lands" just because there is resistance. One may be .001" or .015" into the lands...

Again Tedward...I assume you are referring to PTG and not really the paint company "PPG"...

[LRRPF52]

The reamer maker Tedward is referring to must be PTG, since I'm not aware of a PPG. You have Manson, PTG, and JGS reamers.

If you are not getting hard extraction, and there are no actual land marks, you might consider just shooting them.

If a 123gr SST dummy cartridge loaded to be slightly in the forcing cone still extracts without pulling the bullet, I personally would just shoot it per Satern's recommendations.

I have noticed a difference in the seating depths of the SST vs. A-MAX, and the 123gr A-MAX can be seated much farther out.

[JASmith]

...All I can do is tell you what he said today and he is very confident if you drop the bolt catch, it will chamber and fire. Then it will break in and get looser. It takes at least 25 rounds on a match barrel till a barrel is even broke in and not being hand lapped, you need to run more ammo to get it working smoothly.

With all due respect to an established barrel maker, let's keep in mind that those 25 rounds will show much higher pressure than the normal operating pressure. Assuming that factory ammunition already approaches the recommended maximum operating pressure, it is easy to conclude that we have at least a boxful of loads producing excessive pressure.

The higher pressure puts added strain on the entire system.

Is that a responsible approach?

[BjornF16]

All I can do is tell you what he said today and he is very confident if you drop the bolt catch, it will chamber and fire. Then it will break in and get looser. It takes at least 25 rounds on a match barrel till a barrel is even broke in and not being hand lapped, you need to run more ammo to get it working smoothly.

This tells me it is a "rough" throat only...

[Tedward]

This tells me it is a "rough" throat only...

I think that is what it is and so does Steve. That I'll find out this weekend after I put groups of 25 thru a brand new barrels and check before in the middle and the end. I'll see if the OAL breaks in and gets better.

[BjornF16]

I think that is what it is and so does Steve. That I'll find out this weekend after I put groups of 25 thru a brand new barrels and check before in the middle and the end. I'll see if the OAL breaks in and gets better.

Since LongRanger solved his issue (on one of two barrels) with Tubbs, and S. Satern believes "breaking in" the barrel will resolve the issue, and my two Satern Spartan barrels are just fine with factory ammo, this only makes sense.

How many people with Liberty barrels have had excessive pressure signs in their first 25-50 rounds that later disappeared?

[Tedward]

With all due respect to an established barrel maker, let's keep in mind that those 25 rounds will show much higher pressure than the normal operating pressure. Assuming that factory ammunition already approaches the recommended maximum operating pressure, it is easy to conclude that we have at least a boxful of loads producing excessive pressure.

The higher pressure puts added strain on the entire system.

Is that a responsible approach?

Who knows what pressure an ammo manufacture uses. Do they go low to be safe for liability and let you as the hand loader go high? I don't know and there secret recipet is unknown. So if anyone has ever seen presure signes on a new round maybe. I'll know on Sunday.

I'll pull aside and check my cases for pressure signs now that you mention it in intervals of 5 up to 50 and check OAL in 10,20 30 40 and the 50 mark to see how it increases. I have new barrels just mounted and I can't hand chamber and lock the bolt to the bullet so I'll find out. The go/no-go assuages work fine so the bolt and chamber are set right. It if doesnt chamber on its own, then an issue and back to the drawing board. I have not had an issue with the last 10 or 15, some before the group buy and some after. So only time will tell. Then I will tell you and if other people do the same thing, keep some records and do it in intervals of measuring, like load build up except OAL testing between groups.


Good night....

[adrenaline junkie]

Be careful. Maybe load up some light loads with the bullets set way back?

[Tedward]

Be careful. Maybe load up some light loads with the bullets set way back?

I've been using factory ammo for some time in them and not one issue. I just never put one in the chamber with the bolt and my fingers to test fit before firing it by using a mag and charging handle to chamber it. This is a new process to me and is causing the issues that might have always been there and might not be an issue, just a symptom of the throat.. So I think if I or anyone shoots it like any other rifle it will be fine. JMO.

[woohoo]

Reading the drawing, it appears (to me) that the freebore is from 1.5478" to 1.8113" (+.015")...

I find it interesting that both my Satern Spartan barrels load Hornady factory A-Max just fine. It would seem to me that there is some change in the Satern chambering for this lot of barrels (and maybe some other lots).

If what Steve Satern is quoted above is true (post #307), then are my Satern Spartan barrels "out of spec"?...and all the other Grendel chambers from other barrel makers "out of spec"?

I'm assuming (since I'm not a machinist) that freebore is set with the chamber reamer...

ETA:
1. Tedward...I think Steve Satern must have said "PTG" as in Pacific Tool & Gauge; not the PPG paint company...

2. When Grendel was "SAAMI'd", there were quite a few standard "heavy" bullets being offered in AA factory ammo (e.g. 120 TSX, 120 Nosler BT, 123 Scenar, 129 SST, 130 Scirrocco).

3. Looking at the SAAMI spec, there is "maximum cartridge" and "minimum chamber". Is it just me, or does "maximum cartridge" not establish some sort of SAAMI spec for ammo?

In a 6.5 rifle barrel the groove is .264. The part of the throat in that area from 1.547 to 1.7004 that is .264 or larger is "freebore" if it is smaller than .264 there are lands present. In the case of the Grendel the angle is very small but there are lands there until burnt away. That area is normally freebore with no lands and .264 dia the full length. The compound throat that everyone talks about is that area. The lands ramp up at a very shallow angle then around 1.700 they increase to 1.5 degree like most chambers. The lands in a blank go from one end to another, only the reamer cuts them out. The freebore in a SAAMI Grendel chamber is .039 long directly in front of the maximum case length or the wall/back of 45 degree cone in the chamber.

Normally when chambers are designed if they are designed for long bullets the freebore will be shorter. If designed for short light bullets the freebore will be longer. Seems to me Satern and PTG have their info backwards about what the Grendel chamber was designed for.

[SMM123]

I cannot believe I just read through 34 pages of absolute hell. It was hell because it seems that some are of the opinion that one should just load their ammo to fit. It was hell because there are 34 pages of bickering about the difference between what exists and what is RIGHT.

I have been building AR's of various calibers for years. I purchase components from vendors of all sorts - high quality, average quality, and production quality, brand names, and names I have never heard before. In all my years, I have thrown together the various components from different manufacturers and never once had a concern as to whether my rounds would chamber, fire, and extract properly, that is until I started with 6.5 Grendel.

Why is it that I can purchase AR-Stoner 300 AAC BLK, 5.56, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, and 9mm barrels (among other brands), and bolts from other sources, put them together and they just work, regardless of who's factory ammo I load into them; No measuring, no special tools, no 30+ page forum posts about why it won't work; but then you get a Grendel barrel and all hell breaks lose?

I think that the 6.5 ammunition shortage has caused part of this problem. Everyone had to be a reloader to get some damn ammunition to shoot. There should be no arguments as to how to load your ammunition to get it to function, because if you load it to spec it should work. If you have factory ammunition that is loaded to spec, it should work. There is absolutely no reason that a person should not be able to purchase all of the components to build a 6.5 Grendel rifle, put them together properly, load factory spec ammunition, and have every round chamber properly, fire accurately, and extract normally.

Why? Because that is what is Right. Anything else is wrong! The fact that someone felt the need to pull out a micrometer to check the barrel first is a sure indication that things are not right, and have not been for some time. I just finished building my second Grendel (third one I have owned.) I don't even own a micrometer, and I shouldn't have to either, and I shouldn't need to know all of these specs of the chamber (I don't know them on any of my other rifles, and they work just fine.) But the first two Grendels I owned were ****ed! If this one does not work the way it should, I will be done with it once and for all.

[woohoo]

I cannot believe I just read through 34 pages of absolute hell. It was hell because it seems that some are of the opinion that one should just load their ammo to fit. It was hell because there are 34 pages of bickering about the difference between what exists and what is RIGHT.

I have been building AR's of various calibers for years. I purchase components from vendors of all sorts - high quality, average quality, and production quality, brand names, and names I have never heard before. In all my years, I have thrown together the various components from different manufacturers and never once had a concern as to whether my rounds would chamber, fire, and extract properly, that is until I started with 6.5 Grendel.

Why is it that I can purchase AR-Stoner 300 AAC BLK, 5.56, 5.45x39, 7.62x39, and 9mm barrels (among other brands), and bolts from other sources, put them together and they just work, regardless of who's factory ammo I load into them; No measuring, no special tools, no 30+ page forum posts about why it won't work; but then you get a Grendel barrel and all hell breaks lose?

I think that the 6.5 ammunition shortage has caused part of this problem. Everyone had to be a reloader to get some damn ammunition to shoot. There should be no arguments as to how to load your ammunition to get it to function, because if you load it to spec it should work. If you have factory ammunition that is loaded to spec, it should work. There is absolutely no reason that a person should not be able to purchase all of the components to build a 6.5 Grendel rifle, put them together properly, load factory spec ammunition, and have every round chamber properly, fire accurately, and extract normally.

Why? Because that is what is Right. Anything else is wrong! The fact that someone felt the need to pull out a micrometer to check the barrel first is a sure indication that things are not right, and have not been for some time. I just finished building my second Grendel (third one I have owned.) I don't even own a micrometer, and I shouldn't have to either, and I shouldn't need to know all of these specs of the chamber (I don't know them on any of my other rifles, and they work just fine.) But the first two Grendels I owned were ****ed! If this one does not work the way it should, I will be done with it once and for all.

I get your frustration. To try to explain, if chambers are designed to shoot short blunt bullets at the max OAL 2.26 the freebore will be long so those bullets aren't jammed into the lands. If long bullets like the Lapua Scenar 123gr is loaded to 2.26 the jump to the lands will be .100" or more and accuracy will suffer. In factory produced firearms like Remington or Winchester the chamber designs are one size fits all so all bullets work at the max OAL, accuracy isn't great but most can't tell the difference anyway. In more custom rifles the chamber designs are usually designed for better accuracy and usually with a slow twist barrel the longer high BC bullets are used so the throat is designed shorter to shoot those high BC bullets better. Around 2006 it seems everyone was shooting the Lapua 123 in the Grendel, it works fine. If some one wants to handload a light Speer TNT in the Grendel it must be loaded to a shorter OAL length to keep it out of the lands. That is just part of handloading. Any ammo company loading for the Grendel should know where the lands are and should know to load the bullets to keep them out of the lands. That would be up to the individual handloading to know the same.