AR-Stoner 6.5 Grendel barrel short chambered.

[bwaites]

Not true a shorter throat was identified on this forum back in 2011. Which brings us back to the hysteria.

But that throat was apparently a unique situation, not a whole run. And might actually have been an ammo issue, not a barrel issue, at least if it is the situation I'm thinking of.

[Grendanimal]

Referencing post #123 where rick0shay posted a paragraph for me.....

I received a Lilja 318 barrel today. Using the same technique, tools, and bullets in my post #123, I measured the maximum length I could seat the same 123 SST bullets to in this barrel. It comes out as 2.274. I realize it doesn't matter to some people, but just for reference, and stay true to my previous posts, the cannelure ends up entirely out of the neck, Not nearly as far as rickoshay's comparison above, but a huge (in my opinion) difference from the 2.195 in my other barrel with the cannelure completely hidden.

[customcutter]

Any one else notice? Grendanimal's Lilja barrel is measuring 2.274" and rickOshay's Lilja barrel measured 2.373". That's .099", granted it's longer not shorter, so there won't be an issue with pressure spikes. Apparently the "free bore" on the reamers varies quite a bit.

[Grendanimal]

Any one else notice? Grendanimal's Lilja barrel is measuring 2.274" and rickOshay's Lilja barrel measured 2.373". That's .099", granted it's longer not shorter, so there won't be an issue with pressure spikes. Apparently the "free bore" on the reamers varies quite a bit.

So also, do bullets, ogives, measuring tools, and techniques between people. All that really matters to me is how much difference there is between my measurements with my tools, etc, and I try to do things the same, or as close to possible, each time. I used to build airplanes and am qualified to fly them commercially. When I built them, it was amazing to see how supposedly standardized things end up not being very standard (same with flying them). Along the line, many people have to decide whether to stamp it off or not even though their measurements might disagree. I stamped off things with my initials that weren't good enough for me before going to QC, but were good enough for others. And I'm sure vice versa. Bottom line is this...Like I said way above, people will do what they want to do. It is up to each individual person to decide if something is an issue or not based on information available. My decision??? There is an issue. It sounds as though it will be resolved and wish everyone the best.

[FlatsFlite]

I think the term "hysteria" would normally indicate panic, emotionally-driven responses and comments, when there are none in the discussion that I can see. I think the issue is being handled reasonably, nothing more to really see beyond that. Sometimes things happen, and we deal with it.

I was damn close to meeting a few of those criteria, but thanks to everyone here I'm not sweating it ne way or the other.


XCR, I think there is obvious evidence that there is a problem or two that has nothing to do with you. I am still very thankful, you put the buy together for us and would go in on another one with you in a heartbeat. Your responsibility ended the day our barrels arrived at our doors. You did a great job and it's appreciated.

[LRRPF52]

The biggest issue of group buys is who will take ownership of inevitable problems. Every manufacturer has things that slip by them, no matter how extensive their QC and TQM programs are. What that manufacturer does when a problem is identified is what reputation is built on, in addition to the quality of the product, delivery time, consistency, etc.

I'm quite confident that Satern/Liberty will take care of any issues that may be present in some of the barrels. They are not a fly-by-night company.

[Tedward]

Liberty left, Lilja on right. Note the description about level of polish.

Look at the precision cut on the barrel extension and the beveled opening into the chamber on the barrel to the left. I think the left looks better and thought they were flipped from the picture above. Meaning I thought the left was Lilja. For mass produced not shabby.

[Tedward]

The biggest issue of group buys is who will take ownership of inevitable problems. Every manufacturer has things that slip by them, no matter how extensive their QC and TQM programs are. What that manufacturer does when a problem is identified is what reputation is built on, in addition to the quality of the product, delivery time, consistency, etc.

I'm quite confident that Satern/Liberty will take care of any issues that may be present in some of the barrels. They are not a fly-by-night company.

I spoke to Steve Satern today for a couple hours. His reamers have been checked and all fall into the specifications of the SAAMI Grendel Chamber. He has taken this concern to PPG, the reamer manufacture, and both of them have aggreed it is the way the throat was designed by AA and submitted to SAAMI along with Hornady. They are now discussing the issue your seeing with Hornady but there is not a SAAMI for ammunition. Hornady is not answering there calls as of 3:00est.

Since all of Saterns reamers are in tolerance and he understands what your seeing, Satern along with PPG are thinking changes might need to made to the throat to accommodate longer bullets. Steve again said that Bill Alexander and everyone involved in the development of the Grendel, MANY of the reputable barrel manufactures, all tried to get the Grendel into the military as the alternate cartridge and it was designed around the 87 to 107 gr bullets. It was not designed for hunting or the heavier bullets and there have been no modifications to the throat to accept the longer bullets.

So, where is Bill A and what is his opinion on this? It seems as if he would have chimed in since he developed the cartridge, or trade marked it, and knows how the throat is smaller than .264 causing this early "Kiss". Like J.A. Smith posted the link too the measurements, look at them if you haven't. If you have you can see it will touch, doesnt mean it doesn't work.

SAAMI doesn't tell the ammunition manufactures how to make there bullets, ammunition manufactures need to make there bullets fit SAAMI Chambers and throats.

[BjornF16]

Reading the drawing, it appears (to me) that the freebore is from 1.5478" to 1.8113" (+.015")...

I find it interesting that both my Satern Spartan barrels load Hornady factory A-Max just fine. It would seem to me that there is some change in the Satern chambering for this lot of barrels (and maybe some other lots).

If what Steve Satern is quoted above is true (post #307), then are my Satern Spartan barrels "out of spec"?...and all the other Grendel chambers from other barrel makers "out of spec"?

I'm assuming (since I'm not a machinist) that freebore is set with the chamber reamer...

ETA:
1. Tedward...I think Steve Satern must have said "PTG" as in Pacific Tool & Gauge; not the PPG paint company...

2. When Grendel was "SAAMI'd", there were quite a few standard "heavy" bullets being offered in AA factory ammo (e.g. 120 TSX, 120 Nosler BT, 123 Scenar, 129 SST, 130 Scirrocco).

3. Looking at the SAAMI spec, there is "maximum cartridge" and "minimum chamber". Is it just me, or does "maximum cartridge" not establish some sort of SAAMI spec for ammo?

[jurassic]

Thanks for the call and update, great information.

[JASmith]

I spoke to Steve Satern today for a couple hours. His reamers have been checked and all fall into the specifications of the SAAMI Grendel Chamber. He has taken this concern to PPG, the reamer manufacture, and both of them have aggreed it is the way the throat was designed by AA and submitted to SAAMI along with Hornady. They are now discussing the issue your seeing with Hornady but there is not a SAAMI for ammunition. Hornady is not answering there calls as of 3:00est.

Since all of Saterns reamers are in tolerance and he understands what your seeing, Satern along with PPG are thinking changes might need to made to the throat to accommodate longer bullets. Steve again said that Bill Alexander and everyone involved in the development of the Grendel, MANY of the reputable barrel manufactures, all tried to get the Grendel into the military as the alternate cartridge and it was designed around the 87 to 107 gr bullets. It was not designed for hunting or the heavier bullets and there have been no modifications to the throat to accept the longer bullets.

So, where is Bill A and what is his opinion on this? It seems as if he would have chimed in since he developed the cartridge, or trade marked it, and knows how the throat is smaller than .264 causing this early "Kiss". Like J.A. Smith posted the link too the measurements, look at them if you haven't. If you have you can see it will touch, doesnt mean it doesn't work.

SAAMI doesn't tell the ammunition manufactures how to make there bullets, ammunition manufactures need to make there bullets fit SAAMI Chambers and throats.

First -- let's note that reamers from just ONE reamer maker are having problems.

Second -- It is the combination of SAAMI cartridge and SAAMI chamber specification tells the bullet and ammunition manufacturers what envelope finished ammunition must conform to.

Third -- let's remember the thousands of other Grendel barrels that have launched likely millions of rounds of factory ammunition without the problems induced by ONE reamer maker.

Trying to force Hornady and other manufacturers to change their ammuntion specs to conform to that one reamer maker's vision of the Grendel chamber is the same as attempting to unilaterally force SAAMI to alter the spec. This is unreasonable in the face of the Grendel history.

[Drifter]

I spoke to Steve Satern today for a couple hours. His reamers have been checked and all fall into the specifications of the SAAMI Grendel Chamber. He has taken this concern to PPG, the reamer manufacture, and both of them have aggreed it is the way the throat was designed by AA and submitted to SAAMI along with Hornady. They are now discussing the issue your seeing with Hornady but there is not a SAAMI for ammunition. Hornady is not answering there calls as of 3:00est.

Since all of Saterns reamers are in tolerance and he understands what your seeing, Satern along with PPG are thinking changes might need to made to the throat to accommodate longer bullets. Steve again said that Bill Alexander and everyone involved in the development of the Grendel, MANY of the reputable barrel manufactures, all tried to get the Grendel into the military as the alternate cartridge and it was designed around the 87 to 107 gr bullets. It was not designed for hunting or the heavier bullets and there have been no modifications to the throat to accept the longer bullets.

Did you ask Satern how the chambers of Liberty barrels differ from those of their Satern-brand cut-rifled barrels? Is it the same reamer, or a different one? Same procedure, or a different one? Was Satern using an AA reamer when a business relationship existed between the two companies, and Satern now uses a different reamer, or a different type from a different supplier?

I ask these questions because I've never seen a complaint regarding Satern cut-rifled barrels. I think it would be interesting to know, from a manufacturing perspective, how the chambers differ between their cut-rifled and button-rifled barrels. It would seem that the chambers are cut differently, or something changed along the way at some point. But that's just speculation in an effort to understand the reported issues...

ETA- Are Satern and Liberty barrels made under the same roof, or different locations? Also, if the reamers and / or techniques are different, it would be interesting to use the "Satern" reamer / technique on a Liberty barrel, then examine the results.

[JASmith]

Did you ask Satern how the chambers of Liberty barrels differ from those of their Satern-brand cut-rifled barrels? Is it the same reamer, or a different one? Same procedure, or a different one? Was Satern using an AA reamer when a business relationship existed between the two companies, and Satern now uses a different reamer, or a different type from a different supplier?

I ask these questions because I've never seen a complaint regarding Satern cut-rifled barrels. I think it would be interesting to know, from a manufacturing perspective, how the chambers differ between their cut-rifled and button-rifled barrels. It would seem that the chambers are cut differently, or something changed along the way at some point.

+1 !!

These suggestions will help get us to a solution!

[XcountryRider]

But that throat was apparently a unique situation, not a whole run. And might actually have been an ammo issue, not a barrel issue, at least if it is the situation I'm thinking of.

Maybe but i'm thinking the barrels have always been this way and thats why we get good accuracy and higher velocities. Steve said the same reamer was used for all my barrels from last year and this year. I think they start out kind of tight but then the more you shoot you break them in. I'm hoping they don't change anything i'm a big fan of the barrels i love my accuracy and my velocities. I don't need to load to 2.275.

[url]http

[video=youtube;42Wci69BEbw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42Wci69BEbw[/video]

[rickOshay]

That was my 24" Satern in XCR's video - it has a "normal" chamber.

Satern has stated that he knows his chambers are different and is well aware that they get higher velocities. It seems to be a selling point for his Liberty Brand. The cut-rifled match barrels are different.

I too wonder if Satern brought the Liberty production under his roof, or continued operations at the original Liberty location after the buy out.

[adrenaline junkie]

It would make sense that they would be faster, pressure spike.

[BjornF16]

That was my 24" Satern in XCR's video - it has a "normal" chamber.

Satern has stated that he knows his chambers are different and is well aware that they get higher velocities. It seems to be a selling point for his Liberty Brand. The cut-rifled match barrels are different.

I too wonder if Satern brought the Liberty production under his roof, or continued operations at the original Liberty location after the buy out.

Again, I would ask if Steve Satern believes the Liberty chambers to be "in spec" and his Satern chambers "out of spec"?

[JASmith]

Maybe but i'm thinking the barrels have always been this way and thats why we get good accuracy and higher velocities. Steve said the same reamer was used for all my barrels from last year and this year. I think they start out kind of tight but then the more you shoot you break them in. I'm hoping they don't change anything i'm a big fan of the barrels i love my accuracy and my velocities. I don't need to load to 2.275.

Are sure he said the same reamers or did he mean reamers from the same source?

If they are the same reamers, then how many times have they been sharpened? Normal wear makes the reamer smaller. Sharpening makes the reamer smaller faster, which could be part of the problem, especially if the reamer maker crowded or went a tiny bit below the minimum chamber dimension to start with.

[BjornF16]

Just curious...are Liberty chambered fired brass .295", .297" or .300" neck diameter?

[JASmith]

Just curious...are Liberty chambered fired brass .295", .297" or .300" neck diameter?

How much spring back does your brass give?

I've done that kind of measurement. It is really difficult to infer the true neck diameter because of spring back. The final neck diameter will be slightly smaller than the actual neck once the pressure goes away.

Shooting the same flavor of factory ammunition in the chambers one wants to compare might give an indication of relative diameters. Even then, the differences in chambers can skew the results. For example, if the smaller neck also has a throat that causes the bullet to jam, the resulting higher peak pressure will mean less spring back, which can skew the results enough to make one think the small neck is larger than it is.