JASmith Wrote:You will also see a number of posts in this and other threads that recognize the fact that design features that make a cartridge a top bench rest cartridge also tend to cause reliable function problems in the AR15. And yes, I suspect that there are very few AR15 rifles in the top levels of the bench rest world. There is a reason for that.
Yet there is a problem loading factory ammo in a SAAMI grendel chamber, why? I believe the first post I made a week ago gave my opinion of what may be happening. If it was me I would shoot the barrels to find out if they are accurate and not worry about it if they are accurate. Load the bullets to keep them out of the lands. I replied because I thought everyone was making a big issue out of what may be nothing. Now it has turned into opinion between you and I on what may be happening using facts of the existing chamber and principles of chamber design to explain it.
If the "go" gauge passes the barrels are not short chambered. The bullets just need to be loaded to keep them out of the lands. Something to keep in mind. PTG's reamers have a tolerance of +- .001 it says it right on the print. +- .001 can cause a lot of havoc when the freebore is zero more or less. One big reason most reamers are designed with a bullet diameter +.0005 freebore.
The 223 Wylde chamber is plenty accurate enough to be a bench rest chamber yet it is very reliable in the AR. The area where the case fit is huge, if you look it's larger than a 5.56 nato. It isn't the size of the area around the case that makes the Wylde chamber accurate it is the throat dimensions. The Wylde has a bullet diameter freebore, the Nato freebore is larger than the bullet dia so the cartridge lies in the bottom of the chamber.
Another good read explains the circle centered on the circle centered on the circle. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/295571/...-l-hinnant
woohoo Wrote:Yet there is a problem loading factory ammo in a SAAMI grendel chamber, why?
Because the chamber is almost certainly NOT cut to the SAAMI specification.
It is time to recognize that literally thousands of Grendel chambered rifles have been shipped and likely millions of rounds of Hornady, Lapua, and AA ammunition have been fired.
It is only in the last few weeks that we have seen a discussion of problems with chamber throats being too short. Why is that? We can speculate, but the history suggests that factory ammunition is not the culprit. What has changed is that a batch of barrels, and the reamers that made them, appear to have been cut with short throats.
We can reasonably expect that Steve Satern is competent enough to track down the root cause of the current problem and correct it.
Remember that the cartridge is not a wildcat, and the design is established.
These persistent and, I submit, irrelevant and baseless complaints about the Grendel chamber in the face of the history of the cartridge makes one wonder about motivation.
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Concur, Probably why I am leaning toward shortening my reloads a bit to accommodate, than to send my barrel back. And if need be recheck my factory loads to insure they aren't too long. This just received from Lindsey at Satern:
I talked to my boss yesterday and she said we are currently working on an adaptation to work for the ammunition that is being used by you and other customers. As soon as I am able to give the OK for customers who are concerned with their barrels to send them back to us, I will be sure that information is posted. At this time, any customers who would like to contact me with their information can. I appreciate your patience, and hope to be able to contact you soon. Thanks again!
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Sputnik , I am fairly new on this site .Do I assume you work for Satern ? I have a new AR Stoner from Midway . It does have a short throat or lead by approx. .060 to .100 . I am also on the list for the group Liberty buy . I would like to send this barrel back to have the throat extended if that is the correction you will be doing . Arnie
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01-24-2014, 04:51 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2014, 04:53 PM by NugginFutz.)
arnie Wrote:Sputnik , I am fairly new on this site .Do I assume you work for Satern ? I have a new AR Stoner from Midway . It does have a short throat or lead by approx. .060 to .100 . I am also on the list for the group Liberty buy . I would like to send this barrel back to have the throat extended if that is the correction you will be doing . Arnie
I think you mis-read his post, Arnie. He was quoting someone named Lindsey at Satern. Just without the quote marks.
Reposted, below, with apologies to Sputnik..
Quote:This just received from Lindsey at Satern:
"I talked to my boss yesterday and she said we are currently working on an adaptation to work for the ammunition that is being used by you and other customers. As soon as I am able to give the OK for customers who are concerned with their barrels to send them back to us, I will be sure that information is posted. At this time, any customers who would like to contact me with their information can. I appreciate your patience, and hope to be able to contact you soon. Thanks again!"
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01-24-2014, 05:29 PM
(This post was last modified: 01-24-2014, 05:31 PM by Sputnik.)
Thank You NugginFutz, My mistake. And no, I am a retire Marine after 25 years of service, but emailed Satern about my bolt issue as it looked different than my other bolts. From there, Lindsey and I have returned emails about the bolt and later the chamber. My 16 inch barrel chambers okay, but some of the factory ammo touched the lands and was hard to extract from my uninstalled barrel. I simply dropped the round in the chamber, then the bolt in the extension, pushed and twisted to lock, then twisted to unlock. I had to pull hard to extract the bolt and cartridge at times.
About the bolt, someone told me that the Maxim bolt MAY have a 5.56 extractor, I am not sure what difference that would make. I posted pictures on the thread that is in the build section. I think it was called Liberty Group Barrel Buy Build Comments. Posts #6 and #37 on that thread if you want to view.
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I am fairly certain that the Maxim bolts available through Precision have the proper extractor, after talking with Mark. Purchased elsewhere, I have heard nothing.
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
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OK ,sorry for the mistake . Next week im going to talk to a local Gunsmith that's up on AR's and see if he can deepen the throat on mine .Would probably be just as cost effective as the mailing back and forth .
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My Lilja barrel arrived (thanks Cory!). So I measured the chambers of both the Liberty barrel from the Group Buy vs the Lilja barrel from the Group Buy.
You can see the difference in finish of the two barrels. The feed ramps of the Lilja are nicely polished, the Liberty is still rough.
![[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=4461]](http://www.65grendel.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4461)
![[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=4469]](http://www.65grendel.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4469)
I used the Hornady OAL gauge with Grendel case gauge that was made from my once-fired brass and 123 gr SSTs Here are the results:
Liberty - 2.232 (average)
Lilja - 2.373 (average)
From the Lilja barrel:
![[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=4467]](http://www.65grendel.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4467)
From the Liberty barrel:
![[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=4466]](http://www.65grendel.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4466)
This result is similar to what others are seeing, the Liberty chamber is much shorter causing an SST to be seated with the cannelure in the neck.
I will be calling Satern to return my barrel - for a refund.
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bwaites Wrote:I am fairly certain that the Maxim bolts available through Precision have the proper extractor, after talking with Mark. Purchased elsewhere, I have heard nothing.
Thanks bwaites. That could very well be. I haven't received my PF bolts yet so I can't compare. To clarify, my source viewed the bolts on Maxims' site that they have for sale; they looked slightly different from his point of view.
On a different subject. Post #283 posses a different issue that I have often wondered about. How can us hobbists determine if a post is from a vendor or a regular guy? It is easy for a couple. Mark from PF has his logo, anther poster from Underground tactical has their logo. Easy for us to determine their point of view. But from the wording of others it is unclear if the guy has commercial interests in their posts, as their wording is "we sell" or "we offer". A poster in Idaho comes to mind and a member who offers build boxes and a few others. Is it possible to have a sticky where those who build, manufacture or who are vendors of some sort an be identified or register as such? Or are the anonymity issues with that? Many "old timers" on this site know one another personally and know readily their status, but us newbies are wondering sometimes who does this guy represent? Just my thoughts. Didn't mean to get off topic on this thread, sorry.
As to identifying industry partners and vendors, the forum has an Industry Partner section that businesses are welcome to submit to and join. The Grendel Forum has basically operated on an honor system in that regard since the old forum was destroyed. We used to have small industry banners up in the forum heading on each page.
If you are an industry figure, please contact HANKA, site admin. The Grendel Forum is very friendly to businesses. There are several forum posters who have businesses that post under a regular screen name, so forum members might not know the interests involved behind postings. I would encourage anyone with a business to place some type of logo or link in their profile, after checking in with HANKA.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/forumdisp...Y-PARTNERS
As to the Liberty barrel chambers, I think by following the gentlemanly culture that this forum is known for, we will get it worked out, and there should be no need for a bad taste in anyone's mouth. I know Satern has a great reputation as one of the top-line barrel makers in the US, and they will take care of their customers.
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The link doesn't go anywhere. Just the home page.
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What are the chances of someone spotting me a peace of brass, so I can make a dummy round and check on my chamber out? I'll cover shipping there an back, if you actually want the case returned. Zip is 20695 PM me if you are game.
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FlatsFlite Wrote:What are the chances of someone spotting me a peace of brass, so I can make a dummy round and check on my chamber out? I'll cover shipping there an back, if you actually want the case returned. Zip is 20695 PM me if you are game.
I'd be heppy to if it will help you. You can keep it and don't worry about the shipping.
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Tedward Wrote:Just out of curiosity, on the right or left end view picture of the chamber, which barrel in the liberty and which is the Lilja?
Liberty left, Lilja on right. Note the description about level of polish.
customcutter
Unregistered
rickOshay Wrote:Liberty left, Lilja on right. Note the description about level of polish.
Yup, polishing cost more. I'm actually thinking of sand blasting mine to reduce glare.
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Grendanimal Wrote:I'd be heppy to if it will help you. You can keep it and don't worry about the shipping.
Thanks, I really appreciate it and sent you a PM.
XcountryRider
Unregistered
JASmith Wrote:Because the chamber is almost certainly NOT cut to the SAAMI specification.
It is time to recognize that literally thousands of Grendel chambered rifles have been shipped and likely millions of rounds of Hornady, Lapua, and AA ammunition have been fired.
It is only in the last few weeks that we have seen a discussion of problems with chamber throats being too short. Why is that? We can speculate, but the history suggests that factory ammunition is not the culprit. What has changed is that a batch of barrels, and the reamers that made them, appear to have been cut with short throats.
We can reasonably expect that Steve Satern is competent enough to track down the root cause of the current problem and correct it.
Remember that the cartridge is not a wildcat, and the design is established.
These persistent and, I submit, irrelevant and baseless complaints about the Grendel chamber in the face of the history of the cartridge makes one wonder about motivation. Not true a shorter throat was identified on this forum back in 2011. Which brings us back to the hysteria.
How is it a hysterical reaction when someone identifies that their chamber is shorter than factory ammunition COL? People have a legitimate complaint if factory ammunition from the company that submitted Grendel to SAAMI doesn't fit their chamber, and Satern/Liberty is addressing it by saying they will take care of their customers.
I think the term "hysteria" would normally indicate panic, emotionally-driven responses and comments, when there are none in the discussion that I can see. I think the issue is being handled reasonably, nothing more to really see beyond that. Sometimes things happen, and we deal with it.
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