AR-Stoner 6.5 Grendel barrel short chambered.

[Tedward]

The SAAMI drawing specifies the cartridge as well. It does not, however, specify the maximum allowable ogive for the bullet.

You can bet, however, that no reputable ammunition manufacturer will ship ammunition that will bind or otherwise have trouble in a SAAMI-spec chamber and throat. They won't do it more than once because the cost of replacing the bad stuff, their reputation, and future sales is just too much to bear. They need to sell reliable product or their cash flow disappears.

Further, if the ammunition has somehow crept out of tolerances, the complaints we are discussing would cover a lot more than one manufacturer's barrel and the reamers that made the chamber.

That is why folks suggest checking with more than one factory load, but if the cartridges don't fit, the chamber has one or more problems the barrel maker needs to correct.

That sound like an accurate and reasonable statement. Since your into the Grendel Reload Book deep, you probably know concerning the Grendel. So do you think with the result that LongRanger had with the polishing bullets might mean it just needs broke in since they barrels are not hand lapped? I wonder if they are wire brushed or what method of cleaning is done. Is that up to the buyer?

[customcutter]

[quote=PigOPs]So dies wear out but reamers don't? /QUOTE]

Two completely different types of "wear". The dies will wear because of dirt, grit, dust, any contaminant that is on the jacket. I don't know if he is refering to the bullet forming dies, or the loading dies. Possibly the loading dies are out of adjustment?

The reamer will wear the cutting edges and will begin to chatter. It would be evident through out the chamber, not just in the throat.

I think this issue is maybe a combination of non-lapped barrels and extremely high BC bullets with modified ogives. I know my chamber closes and extracts the 123 SST's. I know I won't be fire lapping my barrel.

[JASmith]

...So do you think with the result that LongRanger had with the polishing bullets might mean it just needs broke in since they barrels are not hand lapped? I wonder if they are wire brushed or what method of cleaning is done. Is that up to the buyer?

One purchasing and installing a chambered and threaded barrel normally expects that standard ammunition will reliably and safely function in that barrel.

The bore lapping described is a machining operation even though bullets are used to do the polishing.

Is it reasonable to ask "Joe the amateur" to do any kind of machining to make his rifle safe and reliable?

[rickOshay]

I am posting this for a friend who purchased a Liberty barrel, but is not (yet) a member of the forum:

I do not have factory ammunition to test my barrel with, and if I was less careful of a reloader, I think it would be a good thing I don't have factory ammo to put in it. Here's why: I talked to Hornady yesterday. Their technical support told me that their 123 SST factory cartridges are at 2.245 (headstamp to tip). I received my 6.5 Grendel modified case today (actually 2 of them). I even checked the modified case in an LE Wilson case gage. Everything checked out fine. I used a Hornady OAL gauge and the modified case to check for seating depth in my barrel. The longest I could seat a 123 SST into my barrel came out to be 2.195. This left the cannelure of that bullet completely covered by the case neck. I called Hornady again and of course they didn't comment a lot about it, but were in agreement that if I tried to chamber a factory cartridge, it would either jam it far into the lands (damaging the bullet, assuming that's what's stopping it) or wouldn't chamber. They were also quite concerned that the cannelure was buried in the case neck and not even visible at max length in my barrel. I will try to contact Satern tomorrow, but judging by Steve's email, they won't be changing anything. Hopefully I am missing something with this, as I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. It looks like it might have been a good thing I bought this barrel from Midway. Even without this thread, the red flags in my head would have gone up when I went to load for this barrel. Buried cannelure and all. I am glad this forum is here, because it saved me quite a bit of time that I would have wasted without it, and it looks like I've wasted enough already. I'm calling Satern tomorrow, but my confidence in anything at this point is quite eroded. Has anyone had these same problems with any other barrel manufacturers? Whether this is a function of what Steve said (ammunition manufacturers) or something else, I really don't want to have to put a sticky note on my rifle when I die and it is handed down to a relative that says not to shoot certain well respected factory ammunition out of this barrel. I'm not here to trash Satern at all, because Steve may certainly be correct. But as the owner of this barrel, a decision has to be made. I can't stamp "6.5 Grendel Handloads Only" on this barrel. Nor would I. That's not what I paid for.

[Lead Chucker]

I checked my dads 16" stoner barrel today against my 18" Satern using a 123 gn amax. Mine measured 2.200" touching the lands & his measured 2.189" which is .012" different. So his is a little shorter than mine but maybe not enough to worry about.

[Tedward]

If the bolt was not deep enough, .130, will that cause the bolt not to lock with the case bottoming out on the front of the chamber? I didn't think it was to relevant and didn't want to throw another wrench into the equation but that is what I'm starting to think. That could be causing the bolt not to close and might not have anything to do with the bullet. You might want to check your bolts. I just checked a batch of them with the back end of my caliper because that is all I have and they measure .130. I measured 3 LBC, 2 Maxim, and 2 AR-Stoners (old used ones) and the Head Space measures .134 to .135.

Would that .005 push the case into the front of the chamber causing ricjOshays issue??

Also the OAL of these bolts are 2.800 and not 2.810 like the 7 that have the correct head space. I wonder if this is a bolt issue not a chamber issue. Wonder who provided Satern these new bolts? My .556 bolts are the same 2.800 length. Oh, and firing pin protrusion is more on them too.

[mccuistion]

If the bolt was not deep enough, .130, will that cause the bolt not to lock with the case bottoming out on the front of the chamber? I didn't think it was to relevant and didn't want to throw another wrench into the equation but that is what I'm starting to think. That could be causing the bolt not to close and might not have anything to do with the bullet. You might want to check your bolts. I just checked a batch of them with the back end of my caliper because that is all I have and they measure .130. I measured 3 LBC, 2 Maxim, and 2 AR-Stoners (old used ones) and the Head Space measures .134 to .135.

Would that .005 push the case into the front of the chamber causing ricjOshays issue??

Also the OAL of these bolts are 2.800 and not 2.810 like the 7 that have the correct head space. I wonder if this is a bolt issue not a chamber issue. Wonder who provided Satern these new bolts? My .556 bolts are the same 2.800 length. Oh, and firing pin protrusion is more on them too.

That would make sense...because my dummy round measurements to the lands aren't too bad, on the small side of average, but the OAL i have to seat to get the rifle into battery with a live round is alarming.

[Drifter]

Wonder if Satern uses a different reamer on button-rifled Liberty / AR-Stoner barrels than what is used on Satern cut-rifled barrels, or if the perceived chamber difference is solely in lapping / finishing? I mention this because I don't recall ever hearing of these problems with their cur-rifled barrels. It might be helpful to learn their manufacturing differences regarding the chambers of each brand.

[jurassic]

Midway will take it back if you have not modified in anyway, and replace it, or give you your money back. Since you believe it's defective they will also refund you shipping charges once they receive it back. I have gone through that process several time with a barrel and other parts.

I also totally agree, no one should have to mod a barrel in anyway, shape or form. If factory ammo does not work, somethings wrong with the barrel or the ammo. It sounds like you ruled out the ammo in your case.

I think you have 2 choices, send the barrel to Satern and let them check it, or send it back to Midway.

[dmsims21]

To me, LongRanger solved/found the problem. Running the polishing bullets shows that his throat probably had a rough surface. There could be a burr in there or bad tool marks. His bullets must have been stopping on the imperfections and not the lands.
I don't think fire lapping could erode the lands that far.

[LongRanger]

To me, LongRanger solved/found the problem. Running the polishing bullets shows that his throat probably had a rough surface. There could be a burr in there or bad tool marks. His bullets must have been stopping on the imperfections and not the lands.
I don't think fire lapping could erode the lands that far.

I am in total agreement with the above statement. Tubb's final finish throat and barrel polishing bullets are only designed to take 3 "ten thousands" of an inch off the inside of the barrel. Since my measured OAL after the fire polishing increased by over 5 hundreds of an inch, I strongly suspect that the chamber was very rough with tool reamer marks and got smoothed down enough for all known factory ammo to chamber now. As long as it fits into a 6.5 Grendel chamber gauge, it should now chamber into my barrel.

[NugginFutz]

To me, LongRanger solved/found the problem. Running the polishing bullets shows that his throat probably had a rough surface. There could be a burr in there or bad tool marks. His bullets must have been stopping on the imperfections and not the lands.
I don't think fire lapping could erode the lands that far.

It can and does, with those Tubbs sandpaper bullets. I moved the throat on one of my rifles a full .010" while using the entire series of those.

[JASmith]

To me, LongRanger solved/found the problem. Running the polishing bullets shows that his throat probably had a rough surface. There could be a burr in there or bad tool marks. His bullets must have been stopping on the imperfections and not the lands.
I don't think fire lapping could erode the lands that far.

If we were dealing with user-designed wildcats, I would concur.

A rifle chambered for a standard cartridge - the SAAMI spec makes it one - must function reliably and safely out of the box with standard ammunition.

[rickOshay]

You wouldn't expect to do that for your .30-06 would you? Spend ~$75 dollars to "fix it"?

[dmsims21]

I agree with you Joe. The barrels shouldn't require any work from the factory.
I was just pointing out that it probably isn't a bolt or head space issue. I am sure Saturn used a SAAMI reamer. I don't think they got the surface finish right. I wonder what a chamber cast would look like and measure in at.

Saturn's response was a little lacking. They may not have gotten all of the info though.

[Grendanimal]

I'm checking to see if I am activated. I guess this will show up if I am. Thanks to "rickOshay" for letting me post a couple times through him earlier today.

[Grendanimal]

Saturn's response was a little lacking. They may not have gotten all of the info though.

That's what I'm hoping, that they don't have all the data. I'm doing my best to give them the benefit of the doubt (as I posted through "rickOshay" earlier.) I wish I had more bullets to test, but quite frankly, that 123 SST is so far off, I'm not optimistic. My concern is that that email didn't seem like any more data was even wanted. But once again, I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt. We'll see.

[LRRPF52]

The longest I could seat a 123 SST into my barrel came out to be 2.195.

Remember, Satern does not make the reamers. If a reamer maker sells them a reamer and claims it is SAAMI, and it is used to cut chambers that won't allow the 123gr SST to be seated longer than 2.195", something is very wrong.

[XcountryRider]

A lot of the projectiles listed in this thread need to be seated deeply regardless of the chamber they are in, because they have tangent ogives that will jam if you try to load them long. If you look at Volumes I & II of the 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks, or check the manufacturers' load data, you will see that a lot of the shorter, lightweight pills need to be loaded short:

90gr Speer TNT 2.200" per AA
120gr Sierra Match King 2.220" per AA

Looking in Volume II, I find:

95gr V-MAX 2.200" from Western Powders, and 2.230" from Hodgdon's
100gr NBT 2.230" from Western Powders

Now the 123gr A-MAX should be able to be loaded quite a bit longer, at least to 2.250", while the 120gr A-MAX will have to be deep seated.
The 123gr SST ranges from 2.230" to 2.275" in Volume II.

The 129gr SST should be able to be loaded even longer, from 2.260" to 2.290". I can load it longer than the mags will allow, although there is enough variation in ogive shape lot-to-lot that we generally want to give ourselves some stand-off.

Don't expect much longer than 2.200" with the short pills with short radiused tangent ogives, like the 95gr V-MAX, 120gr SMK, etc.

That said, if factory Hornady or AA ammo isn't chambering, or is jamming into the throat/lands, you have a major problem.

I went an reseated by bullets to the proper depth and now everything is working smoothly. Seems my Vmax was loaded to far out and when the bullet got stuck last time powder got into the chamber prevented the other bullets from seating properly. I changed the COAL for Vmax to the recommended 2.200" and it seated fine. I changed Nosler 100 BT to COAL of 2.300" and once again seated fine. I kept the 120gr Barnes the same depth as before and it seated fine. So the mistake WAS ALL ON ME and nothing to do with my Grendel Liberty barrel.

[Grendanimal]

Remember, Satern does not make the reamers. If a reamer maker sells them a reamer and claims it is SAAMI, and it is used to cut chambers that won't allow the 123gr SST to be seated longer than 2.195", something is very wrong.

I completely agree. However, I didn't buy a reamer. I bought a barrel. Heck, I'm so slow to judge normally that I even feel I need to say that I have no proof that Satern/Liberty made this barrel, as it is AR Stoner from Midway. Of course, from what I've read, I'm pretty sure it is (very recently ordered and arrived). I just want to make it clear that I am not trashing anyone. But I also wanted to make it clear that, as you said, something is very wrong.