Just got back from SHOT, and spent some time at DTA's booth looking over the prototypes of the MDR-C and MDR. If it proves reliable, I think they have cracked the bullpup code. This is something I've had to sit on for years, knowing that Nick was working on a semi-auto bullpup. He's a big bullpup fan obviously, and has really analyzed all the military bullpup variants on the market over the years.
The guns are very light compared to the Tavor. The ejection system is one of the more innovative approaches to a bullpup design that I have seen over the years. The trigger feels nothing like a bullpup, and is very smooth and light on the prototypes. The system has a common receiver set with the upper and lower, with a modular insert to change cartridge length types when going from 7.62 NATO based cartridge, to intermediate cartridges.
The bolt is a Stoner rotating lug design, but with nuances to be able to articulate with the ejection system. The ejection port cover/chute can be opened by the user to access the chamber and bolt for clearing malfs. You can check the chamber without opening the cover, as there is a bit of clearance on the forward edge of the cover to see the chamber.
The gas block and regulator is reminiscent of the FAL, with tool-less rotation of the knob. The magazine release is forward of the trigger guard, and mirror-ambidextrous, so it is the only bullpup I know of that can drop the mag with in-place firing hand operation. The guns have a lot of TD&E to undergo, so I wouldn't expect anything soon on them.
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Great info. I don't have any experience with bullpup, but I believe some use electrical systems in their triggers, correct? Is the MDR a purely mechanical system or does it rely on some electrical systems in the trigger and mag release?
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin
Totally mechanical. Neither I, nor a prominent gun industry reviewer could get the trigger to reset, so that is one of the areas that needs to be addressed between now and production. Maybe it resets when fired, but we had no way to tell.
The Remington R51 pistols I looked over had the same problem. The slide would hang up when you held the trigger to the rear while testing reset.
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LRRPF52 Wrote:Just got back from SHOT, and spent some time at DTA's booth looking over the prototypes of the MDR-C and MDR. If it proves reliable, I think they have cracked the bullpup code. This is something I've had to sit on for years, knowing that Nick was working on a semi-auto bullpup. He's a big bullpup fan obviously, and has really analyzed all the military bullpup variants on the market over the years.
The guns are very light compared to the Tavor. The ejection system is one of the more innovative approaches to a bullpup design that I have seen over the years. The trigger feels nothing like a bullpup, and is very smooth and light on the prototypes. The system has a common receiver set with the upper and lower, with a modular insert to change cartridge length types when going from 7.62 NATO based cartridge, to intermediate cartridges.
The bolt is a Stoner rotating lug design, but with nuances to be able to articulate with the ejection system. The ejection port cover/chute can be opened by the user to access the chamber and bolt for clearing malfs. You can check the chamber without opening the cover, as there is a bit of clearance on the forward edge of the cover to see the chamber.
The gas block and regulator is reminiscent of the FAL, with tool-less rotation of the knob. The magazine release is forward of the trigger guard, and mirror-ambidextrous, so it is the only bullpup I know of that can drop the mag with in-place firing hand operation. The guns have a lot of TD&E to undergo, so I wouldn't expect anything soon on them.
Sounds very promising. Just have to wait and see how development goes and if they actually become a production piece.
The Tavor is the most modern bullpup by age but the design did not break any new ground to make it any better than an
AUG or FS2000. Lighter is always better and being able to drop the mag with the firing hand still in position is a nice feature.
Can you say how the ejection system works, as compared to the operation of the FS2000? The forward ejection really improves the ambi operation of the system, one of the things that makes the FS2000 so good.
I will be watching the development, especially if they make a Grendel barrel or I would like one in 7.62x39, if no Grendel.
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babue Wrote:...being able to drop the mag with the firing hand still in position is a nice feature.....
One of the strong points of AUG ergonomics is the magazine release.
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Nukes Wrote:One of the strong points of AUG ergonomics is the magazine release. Did not say it was not a good point. My FS2000 works like the AUG but for people used to AR's they do not care for the mag release on the AUG or FS2000.
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LRRPF52 Wrote:Just got back from SHOT, and spent some time at DTA's booth looking over the prototypes of the MDR-C and MDR. If it proves reliable, I think they have cracked the bullpup code. Well, part of the code, anyway. The toughest bullpup issue has yet to be solved: LOP adjustable to fit shooters with short arms and/or wearing body armor. The MDR's LOP looks to be rather long.
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babue Wrote:My FS2000 works like the AUG but for some people used to AR's they do not care for the mag release on the AUG or FS2000. Fixed it fer ya.  (I was just as comfortable with the mag release on my AUG as I was with that on my two AR15s.)
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I have definitely seen some of our Austrian friends do mag changes approximately as fast as any I have seen done with an M-4. I fully expected it to be a problem since it was closer to the body and the release location. It wasn't.
In 3-Gun competition I loved our AUGs—until the courses of fire were aimed (pun intended) to unseat AUGs from the top rungs by forcing weak-side positions. Of course that underscores how the weak-side is its Achilles heel in the "real world" (whatever that is). That utilitarian recognition prompted me to sell 'em off.
Biggest issue with other Bullpup designs is that when in the prone while taking cover ( if you even have cover) changing mags sucks if it takes two hands just to remove the magazine. With a single hand magazine release using either firing hand on a true ambi design, it allows you to drop the mag while you secure the fresh mag with your other hand. A cumbersome reload process often involves scooping up dirt with the fresh mag, which will shut your gun down, no matter what the design is.
Imagine your arms in the dirt, moving back and forth trying to manage insertion of a critical feed device while projectiles are zipping over your head.
For shooting with your non-dominant side, any time you need to hi-low on a RH corner, the way to expose the least amount of yourself is by holding with a left hand grip.
It is easier and lower profile for me to reload a 30rd or 42 rd AUG mag prone than a 30rd AR mag prone—however shooting the 42rd mag is not so low profile.
Also, unless someone wears Size 5½ surgical gloves, a two-handed AUG mag change is completely unnecessary.
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Nukes Wrote:In 3-Gun competition I loved our AUGs—until the courses of fire were aimed (pun intended) to unseat AUGs from the top rungs by forcing weak-side positions. Of course that underscores how the weak-side is its Achilles heel in the "real world" (whatever that is). That utilitarian recognition prompted me to sell 'em off.
They have a solution for the left hand shooting position, not perfect but usable. Just don't stick your tongue out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VzrkOlwPD4
Dang! A working solution. Hmmmm.... I have a hankering to visit the gun store.
P.S. When you said "Just don't stick your tongue out," I was worried that it was going to be a Miley Cyrus Shoots AUG Left-handed video. Very relieved to find otherwise.
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Nukes Wrote:In 3-Gun competition I loved our AUGsuntil the courses of fire were aimed (pun intended) to unseat AUGs from the top rungs by forcing weak-side positions. Of course that underscores how the weak-side is its Achilles heel in the "real world" (whatever that is). That utilitarian recognition prompted me to sell 'em off. As best I can tell, the only "real world" situation where weak-side shooting actually matters is competition. This seems to be like speed reloading -- immensely valuable in matches, but rarely practiced on the battlefield.
In the multitude of combat videos I've watched on YouTube, there was only one instance of a soldier switching his carbine to the left shoulder for firing around the corner of a building. In all other instances, the troops continued to shoot around corners from the right shoulder even though it meant exposing more of their bodies.
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LRRPF52 Wrote:Biggest issue with other Bullpup designs is that when in the prone while taking cover ( if you even have cover) changing mags sucks if it takes two hands just to remove the magazine. With a single hand magazine release using either firing hand on a true ambi design, it allows you to drop the mag while you secure the fresh mag with your other hand. A cumbersome reload process often involves scooping up dirt with the fresh mag, which will shut your gun down, no matter what the design is.
Imagine your arms in the dirt, moving back and forth trying to manage insertion of a critical feed device while projectiles are zipping over your head. I think you're greatly overstating the issue. I've watched videos of Aussie, Brit, and other bullpup-armed soldiers doing combat mag changes in the prone position, but don't recall any showing such problems as you describe.
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Nukes Wrote:Dang! A working solution. Hmmmm.... I have a hankering to visit the gun store.
P.S. When you said "Just don't stick your tongue out," I was worried that it was going to be a Miley Cyrus Shoots AUG Left-handed video. Very relieved to find otherwise.
Thanks, now I will have nightmares tonight with that image in my mind!
Quote:As best I can tell, the only "real world" situation where weak-side shooting actually matters is competition. This seems to be like speed reloading -- immensely valuable in matches, but rarely practiced on the battlefield.
In the multitude of combat videos I've watched on YouTube, there was only one instance of a soldier switching his carbine to the left shoulder for firing around the corner of a building. In all other instances, the troops continued to shoot around corners from the right shoulder even though it meant exposing more of their bodies.
Correct, like good marksmanship, shooting around a RH corner is rarely practiced by most soldiers, since they have never been trained to do it, just like they have never been trained to hit targets from anything other than the severely dumbed down Train Fire system from the foxhole supported, or prone unsupported positions. Usually, they are just making do with whatever improvisation comes to them at the moment.
I've trained with both techniques, so I have both tools in the box.
Quote:I think you're greatly overstating the issue. I've watched videos of Aussie, Brit, and other bullpup-armed soldiers doing combat mag changes in the prone position, but don't recall any showing such problems as you describe.
I've done it for real. It's a legitimate consideration. Mitigating debris, especially dirt, is important for a combatant while dealing with the feed system of a mechanical device. I do like that bullpups keep the mag well close to your body, so you just rotate the weapon over 90 degrees and insert the mag close to your body, whereas a traditional mag well and weapon with any weight to the front is often difficult to lift up while changing mags in the prone, especially with an underslung grenade launcher attached.
The point is that it is easier if you can drop the mag with your firing hand as you reach for the fresh mag. You're going to get it done with the weapon you have, but any added advantage helps.
I have drafted out some bullpup designs over the years, and they all have magazine change and bolt catch features that can be operated by the firing hand while holding the pistol grip. The biggest area that always proved problematic for me was ejection. DTA seems to have found a very promising solution to that, that is rather simple.
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cory Wrote:Great info. I don't have any experience with bullpup, but I believe some use electrical systems in their triggers, correct? . . .
cory,
Correct! Though rare, electronically-actuated trigger-to-sear systems for Bullpup rifles, a viable alternative to mechanically-actuated systems --- at least, in some sport/target applications --- in fact, do exist
http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?6863...ger-system
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/sho...p?t=317395
And, on this non-autoloading design, a consistent one-and-one-half-ounce trigger pull --- sweet ecstacy!
[video]http://tinypic.com/r/16ht4z6/5[/video]
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