What is your preferred Home Defense caliber, suppressed SBR or Bullpup

[Whelenon]

IF you have a dog with PROFESSIONAL training, they MIGHT be depended upon to be helpful.

Our neighborhood had a one night rash of burglaries about 6 years ago. 9 OCCUPIED homes in a lakeside setting were broken into in the 4-6 AM time frame. One of those had a German Shepherd roaming the house and a dog door to the garage. The suspects entered the house manipulating a sliding glass door that was locked. They found keys to the SUV in the garage, loaded the loot, and left, making their way through eight more houses. 3 of those also had large breed dogs, including our Pit Bull. NOT ONE OF THE DOGS EVEN SOUNDED THE ALARM THAT SOMETHING WAS UP!

They entered our house through a back garage door, then an interior unlocked door from the garage. (Terrible OPSec on my part. the exterior door has been replaced with a steel frame, steel core wooden door and the interior garage door is now deadbolted.)

All four of us with large breed dogs THOUGHT our dogs would make noise, at least. None of us ever figured out why they didn't.

We now have significantly upgraded our alarm system in several different ways, but we learned that unless your dogs are exceptionally well trained, or you get very lucky, dogs aren't as good a system as we had hoped.

That's surprising that none of those dogs didn't raise the alarm. I've always had dogs and figured they were at least an early warning system. We had a couple Goldens and they would bark at everything and anything. Now we have a Pit Bull and as far as home defense forget about it. She rarely barks and if someone broke in to our house she'd maybe lick them to death. She is a great family pet, for the most part the Pit Bull reputation is media hype.

From a practical stand point dogs shouldn't be part of a home defense plan unless you are prepared to commit to a serious and ongoing training program. Then a Pit Bull would be formidable.

[explorecaves]

That's surprising that none of those dogs didn't raise the alarm. I've always had dogs and figured they were at least an early warning system. We had a couple Goldens and they would bark at everything and anything. Now we have a Pit Bull and as far as home defense forget about it. She rarely barks and if someone broke in to our house she'd maybe lick them to death. She is a great family pet. The Pit Bull reputation is media hype.

From a practical stand point dogs shouldn't be part of a home defense plan unless you are prepared to commit to a serious and ongoing training program.

There is a reason why pits have the nickname Nanny Dog. Also, there is an old adage about dogs and intruders… Don't rely on them as protection as they are more likely to show the intruders where the valuables are than to prevent the intrusion.

[BjornF16]

Seriously...no one has any muzzle velocity data for 95 V-Max out of a 10.5" Grendel?

Bill Alexander: Any follow up to your following comment?

I get where Haraise is coming from and I know that David Fortier does as well. He has been pushing for more data on the shorter barrels and is rarely wrong about the market.

The Grendel market will and has changed over time, creating and maintaining this data is of benefit given how our future may unfold. To date Grendel started as a heavy long barrel system for long ranges. The first guns had near bull barrels and we only made a 24". The 20" was next but the profile remained heavy. Roll forward a few years and Wolf brings out Gold ammo, we have high cap mags from CProducts and the tactical line of guns. These are the first guns that move out from the long range precision shooter who will likely shoot targets and probably also hand load low volumes of very precise ammunition for this purpose. We had a 10.5" a 14.5" and a 16". The 16" sells like crazy but the ammo is still not cheap and many still buy the guns for an accuracy game. The 10.5" and 14.5" guns are not really viable as a commercial venture due to the extremely slow sales.No one is looking at either short barrels or weight.

About 18/24 months ago (I think it was about then) it changes again. SAAMI starts to examine the caliber with Hornady's sponsorship and for some reason at the same time people start do discover the caliber. We get pushed for lighter barrels and then SAAMI approves the caliber which allows proprietary protection to be remove. We rewrite all our barrel profiles to reflect what people are asking for, Lite profile options and flutes available on everything.

About the same time Wolf sets up a meeting with Barhaul. Tula had been unresponsive, yes they would build the cartridge but three years latter nothing had moved. Barhaul are different. We get the same "yes we will do it" at SHOT and then 7 months latter a massive great crate of cases arrive. They want to meet again and they want results from the cases in AR rifles. Then they call for another discussion at IWA. Now we have Molot as well as Barhaul involved. Izhmash attends as well as others, all at the highest levels of engineering and management. We get a PO for a large number of test weapons and Molot unveil their AK in 6.5 Grendel.

As we stand we may be about to watch another metamorphosis of the caliber. Steel case will be cheap and readily available. The market is pushing light weight Grendel builds and now we see more requests for shorter barrels. Could be great, could be not!

I will dig out a selection of our shorter barrels and add these to the testing regime. I have 10.5" 12" 13.6" 14.5" and 16" available. Looks like I also need to start making gel again.

[cory]

IF you have a dog with PROFESSIONAL training, they MIGHT be depended upon to be helpful.

Our neighborhood had a one night rash of burglaries about 6 years ago. 9 OCCUPIED homes in a lakeside setting were broken into in the 4-6 AM time frame. One of those had a German Shepherd roaming the house and a dog door to the garage. The suspects entered the house manipulating a sliding glass door that was locked. They found keys to the SUV in the garage, loaded the loot, and left, making their way through eight more houses. 3 of those also had large breed dogs, including our Pit Bull. NOT ONE OF THE DOGS EVEN SOUNDED THE ALARM THAT SOMETHING WAS UP!

They entered our house through a back garage door, then an interior unlocked door from the garage. (Terrible OPSec on my part. the exterior door has been replaced with a steel frame, steel core wooden door and the interior garage door is now deadbolted.)

All four of us with large breed dogs THOUGHT our dogs would make noise, at least. None of us ever figured out why they didn't.

We now have significantly upgraded our alarm system in several different ways, but we learned that unless your dogs are exceptionally well trained, or you get very lucky, dogs aren't as good a system as we had hoped.

If nobody will say I will, it's someone y'all know. Likely a group of teenagers or young adults still living at home in the neighborhood.

[NugginFutz]

There is a reason why pits have the nickname Nanny Dog. Also, there is an old adage about dogs and intruders… Don't rely on them as protection as they are more likely to show the intruders where the valuables are than to prevent the intrusion.

Pretty generalized assessment. My dawg raises Caine whenever anyone hits the driveway or walks past the house, whether it knows them or not. Interestingly, I can tell from the tone of the barking if they are welcome guests or UPS, etc. Each pooch has its own temperament, and I understand why you cannot rely on just any dog for protection. I've had some that were more of a slipping hazard from peeing the floor, than anything to do with their teeth. Long and short of it is if you want a dog the eats intruders, it's gotta be trained, as bwaites says.

[sneaky one]

This thread came up a while back-remember? The only difference was the rifle choice this time.

On the previous one- I stated that I would use my S & W model 2206, .22 LR- semi auto handgun loaded with CCI Stingers. 10 shots x 2 mags.
I have trained with this setup in dark , and daylite conditions. The robe-back pocket backup to this one is a S&W polymer .380, loaded w/ 6 critical defense loads.
The idea here is not to destroy my house-mechanical items in the house-furnace-wiring-AC unit-etc...in case of a few stray bullets==you will miss the target in the dark, more than you hit the d-bag.

Thirdly, the Grrr is leaning against my nightstand , slinged- fully loaded=26 rnds. of 95 Vmax- in case they can still crawl a bit.. Layser lyte small red laser on it- flashlite is the headband unit= super bright.

I don't want to shoot thru the walls as to injure my naybs. They are too nice to throw bullets at them -Practice on hitting your target in semi dark situations.

Next up- I just bought a BHW 5.56 bbl., it came with a free upper from Surplus ammo--==I will load for this w/ 40 grn. Varmint Grenades- as to replace- or-backup the Grrr.

Many asked of the Stingers as my first choice- We found an old stop sign on an abandoned road years back- it was .22 handgun shoot afternoon with my old Dad.

We tried 9 brands- wts. types of .22 ammo==the CCI Stinger was the only one that went thru the sign @ 20 yds. Plus full reliability.

If I had no handguns, I would choose the 5.56 in Varmint Grenade loading-to keep the hood safe. A big dog would be nice- but as L-52 stated- you have to be there to train the hound, some of us are too dang busy!

And as bwaites stated-can ya trust them??? Throw a dog a steak-med. rare- he'll polish your shoes! Do the laundry too!!!!! Protect your family-you too. Take a carry class.

Join the NRA for a start.
I'll post a pic soon of a .45 ACP recovered thru the gel= OMG! Federal Hydro shock.

[cory]

Pretty generalized assessment. My dawg raises Caine whenever anyone hits the driveway or walks past the house, whether it knows them or not. Interestingly, I can tell from the tone of the barking if they are welcome guests or UPS, etc. Each pooch has its own temperament, and I understand why you cannot rely on just any dog for protection. I've had some that were more of a slipping hazard from peeing the floor, than anything to do with their teeth. Long and short of it is if you want a dog the eats intruders, it's gotta be trained, as bwaites says.

+1 to temperament

I don't intend for my dogs to in any way take the place of me with a firearm in the security of my home and my loved ones. Their intended role is to bark loud and look scary. They are D**N good at that! Truth be told if you'll rub their heads they're big teddy bears.

That being said, it's very true that dogs will take on the personality of their owners, and I'm very protective of my loved ones, especially the women in my life. I've had Gunny(the brindle) since he was 5 weeks old(now 5 years). I honestly never knew if I'd be able to rely on him to protect the family, until a year ago.

While I was in the kitchen getting ready to have friends over for a fight, he was in the living room with my girlfriend(ex now), who he's quite fond of. A good friend of mine(6'4" 250lbs all muscle) who had never meet him came walking into the house through the living room. The dog wasn't having any of it. He got between him and the gf, if he had made the wrong move the dog would of torn through him. I've seen my dog pissed and in skirmishes with other dogs(dogs will be dogs), but I'd never seen him that intense. It took over an hour to get him calmed down again.

Needless to say I don't worry about security of my loved ones when the brindle is there. The verdict is still out on the fawn, I've had him less than a year. However, he is the scarier one when someone initially comes to the house.

Sneaky I just read your post. In the situation above a steak would of done nothing for you. If I hadn't been involved, my buddy would of lost his jugular.

[montana]

For general perimeter security and some attack work, I fell in love with Shepherds, mainly because of their intellect and general temperament, but I'm not a breeder or formally-trained trainer. I know I learned a lot of things from the Shepherds about movement, and how much I could trust them to do things a human needs years of training to barely be able to do.

I would own a shepherd if it weren't for my travel schedule. You can't just dump them off on people, and they shed like nobody's business.

Speaking of working with dogs and shooting in the house, yet another reason to go suppressed.

I have raised German shepherds all my life and I'm on my 5th one right now. Mine have always come from very good breeders which are not cheap but worth every penny. The best description I have for them is intelligent and loyal . I have been fortunate enough that mine is by my side almost continuous. Fast to learn, and easy to train. They have never failed when I have needed them. I love all breeds but their is only one breed as far as I'm concerned.

[Whelenon]

A long the lines of home defense weapons, if I were to build an AR-15 pistol lower, is there a maximum barrel length for a pistol? Would it be legal to put my 16" 556 upper on a pistol lower?

[FlatsFlite]

I have a XDm 5.25 in 45 ACP loaded with 230gr hollow points on my side of the bed. My wife has it's little brother with 125gr hollow points on her side of the bed. That's 33 rounds to allow me to get to the 12ga auto loader about 12 feet from the bed.

But hopefully, my dog will be running around the house throwing an arm or leg up in the air, before it gets to that point.

[txgunner00]

My first choice is whatever I can put my hands on the quickest (have hardware hidden throughout the house).

My preference is a 5.56 SBR suppressed with 55 grain V-max. I've shot countless critters with those bullets and I can tell you they are explosive.

If you are concerned about over-penetration, how about .17 Remington for a caliber? 25 grain bullet at 4000 fps is devastating on flesh but breaks up on contact with even a small twig.

[wiersy111]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4376[/ATTACH]

Would these be considered Overkill? LOL No they are not 44's One is a 45-70 the other is 450 Marlin.

[BjornF16]

Still no votes for Grendel?...Variable, where are you?

[cory]

Still no votes for Grendel?...Variable, where are you?

I was wondering the same thing. I remember the last time I saw him on here.

[BjornF16]

I've seen Variable lurking lately...still no vote.

[BjornF16]

6.5 Grendel 10.5" SBR, 123 A-Max (SD=.252)
2200 fps/1322 ft-lbs; Max PBR 198 yds/933 ft-lbs

300 BLK 10" SBR, 110 V-Max (SD=.166)
2175 fps/1155 ft-lbs; Max PBR 186 yds/644 ft-lbs

Variable, where is your vote?!

[Joseph5]

45 ACP at the moment. All of my rifles are not conductive to indoor use. Glock and 1911 are.

[Smud Dude]

Nagant M1895 (7.62x38R). you can sniff louder than this thing. And there lots of them out there if you know where to look. 2. 1911. 3. FNX in 45 ACP Tactical (actually I like this one best if it's the zombie apocalypse).

[Smud Dude]

My bad. Finally twigged on the SBR thing. It's a 5.56 pistol. Only 1 tax stamp needed, and I can use the can on my other rifles.

[Variable]

Oops. Here I am.LOL And up there's your one 6.5 Grendel vote. I haven't been catching all the threads lately, and been using the "daily" search. I just click the ones that catch my eye first, cuz I don't have time to read them all.

This thread is too long to read it all, but here's my on the fly opinion based on a cursory scan of the thread:

1.) If I'm on duty they get 5.56 or .40 cal.

2.) If I'm off duty they'll get .45 Ranger-T +P from the night stand or my holster depending on where I'm standing/sleeping. If I'm in the bedroom and got time, they'll get 10.5" Grendel w/123 Amax. I'm not worried about overpenetration in my neighborhood/house, and the one test I did do with a high speed .223 varmint bullet out of my 6933 failed to stop in the sheetrock wall I shot it through anyway.




The TLR-2 works great, and I need to switch it out for a high lume version. "Hello, thwack thwack, goodbye". The placement on the rail that way co-witnesses the laser with the Aimpoint, and activates by thumb easily without grips, tape switches or any other clutter.





Not realistic (unless I INTENDED to misbehave), because I don't actually CC it with the can on, nor do I keep the can on in the nightstand while sleeping.LOL Oh well, I'm already half deaf anyway.

Dogs: Malinois---- Holy crack smokers Batman! Those evil little bastards have bitten more cops and service personnel than probably all other breeds combined.LOL They seemingly live to bite. Great sentry dog, but wouldn't trust one around my kids. Agree with Paul. Sheps are awesome, but shed too much. I went "superior" size for dobies. My last male is dead now (he was well over 125#), but his sister is still alive at 9yrs. old. Rare for that breed to live that long at that size, but she's holding up okay so far. The wife dreads when I'll restart a pair. I want to start now, but she's begging for a break from the responsibility.

Super sucky pic when they were still half grown pups:



The female now: She's about 95#.

Dogs not biting--- Without formal training a lot of dogs won't bite. Especially to protect an otherwise unoccupied house. Our female could care less about the house when we aren't home, she cares about her "pack". She has to be carefully watched when we are home and someone comes around. She's bit before (fortunately "warning" bites), and we have to lock her up when my young daughter goes outside. She can't be trusted around strangers in proximity to her. She minds me while I'm present, but it's too risky to walk away.