ATF thread

[bwaites]

Last night I posted several times to the ATF thread started by Bjorn.

This morning that thread has disappeared. It was not intentionally deleted, so I cannot say exactly what happened.

It had some valuable information, as well as a bunch of conduct that was unbecoming of our members.

This forum is, hopefully, different than most out there, and our intent is to keep it a bright and enjoyable location for all to visit.

Repeating what I have said in the past, please treat everyone as if they are a friend you have met around a campfire!

This is a season of faith, hope, and as we begin a New Year I would encourage us all to make the world a better and brighter place, in spite of the darkness that seems to gather!

Let us strive to shoot more and argue less this wonderful Season which celebrates both the birth of Christ and the birth of a New Year!

[BjornF16]

With your permission Bwaites, I'll repost some of the information I found pertaining to ATF rulings (again, not an endorsement of ATF, GCA, NFA, etc...and I hope to avoid any ATF bashing on this thread). If good enough, perhaps you can make it a sticky.

Disclaimer: ATF constantly changes interpretations. Check for latest "rulings" at http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/r...index.html

[BjornF16]

There have been two relatively recent rulings on the application of camouflage to firearms (i.e. complete firearm, or serialized receiver/frame). Both of these rulings are pertinent to those who apply such coatings as their business, where this is their primary means of earning a livelihood.

Note: I'm not certain as to whether ATF considers Cerakote or GunKote to be paints, or substances that "increase the durability" of a firearm.

1. ATF Ruling 2009-1: (http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rul...2009-1.pdf)

Performing a cosmetic processor activity, such as camouflaging, that primarily adds to or changes the appearance or decoration of a firearm is not manufacturing. Unlike manufacturing processes that primarily enhance a firearm's durability, camouflaging is primarily cosmetic. Likewise, external engravings are cosmetic in nature and primarily affect only the appearanceof a firearm.

Held, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or changes a firearm's appearance by camouflaging the firearm by painting, dipping, or applying tape does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or changes a firearm's appearance by engraving the external surface of the firearm does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who is licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, and who camouflages or engraves firearms as described in this ruling does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or engraving firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act.


2. ATF Ruling 2010-10: (http://www.atf.gov/regulations-rulings/r...010-10.htm)

Although installing parts in or on firearms, and applying special coatings and treatments to firearms are manufacturing activities, the definition of “manufacturer” in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) and 27 CFR 478.11 also requires that a person be “engaged in the business” before the manufacturer’s license requirement of section 923(a) applies. Thus, a person who manufactures a firearm will require a manufacturer’s license if he/she devotes time, attention, and labor to such manufacture as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured. If the person is performing such services only for a customer on firearms provided by that customer, and is not selling or distributing the firearms manufactured, the person would be a “dealer” as defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(11)(B) and 27 CFR 478.11, requiring a dealer’s license, assuming the person is “engaged in the business” as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11 (i.e., “gunsmithing”.

A dealer is “engaged in the business” of gunsmithing, as defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11, when he/she receives firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) provided by a customer for the purpose of repairing, modifying, embellishing, refurbishing, or installing parts in or on those firearms. Once the work is completed, the gunsmith returns the firearms, and charges the customer for labor and parts. As with an individual customer, a licensed dealer-gunsmith may receive firearms (properly identified with a serial number and other information required by 27 CFR 478.92) and conduct gunsmithing services for a customer who is a licensed importer or manufacturer. A dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms because the firearms being produced are not owned by the dealer-gunsmith, and he/she does not sell or distribute the firearms manufactured. Once the work is completed, the dealer-gunsmith returns the firearms to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and does not sell or distribute them to any person outside the manufacturing process. Under these circumstances, the licensed dealer-gunsmith is not “engaged in the business” of manufacturing firearms requiring a manufacturer’s license.

Held, any person licensed as a dealer-gunsmith who repairs, modifies, embellishes, refurbishes, or installs parts in or on firearms (frames, receivers, or otherwise) for, or on behalf of a licensed importer or licensed manufacturer, is not required to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act, provided the firearms for which such services are rendered are: (1) not owned, in whole or in part, by the dealer-gunsmith; (2) returned by the dealer gunsmith to the importer or manufacturer upon completion of the manufacturing processes, and not sold or distributed to any person outside the manufacturing process; and (3) already properly identified/marked by the importer or manufacturer in accordance with Federal law and regulations.

[BjornF16]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html

Q: May a person engage in gunsmithing under a dealer’s license (type 01), or do gunsmiths need to be licensed as “manufacturers” of firearms?

Generally, a person engaged in gunsmithing requires only a dealer’s license (type 01). There are circumstances in which a gunsmith might require a manufacturing license. Generally, a person should obtain a license as a manufacturer of firearms if the person is:

1. performing operations which create firearms or alter firearms (in the case of alterations, the work is not being performed at the request of customers, rather the person who is altering the firearms is purchasing them, making the changes, and then reselling them),

2. is performing the operations as a regular course of business or trade, and

3. is performing the operations for the purpose of sale or distribution of the firearms.

Below are examples of operations performed on firearms and guidance as to whether or not such operations would be considered manufacturing under the Gun Control Act (GCA). These examples do not address the question of whether the operations are considered manufacturing for purposes of determining excise tax. Any questions concerning the payment of excise tax should be directed to the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau, U.S. Department of the Treasury.

A company produces a quantity of firearm frames or receivers for sale to customers who will assemble firearms.
The company is engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms and should be licensed as a manufacturer of firearms.

A company produces frames or receivers for another company that assembles and sells the firearms.
Both companies are engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms and each should be licensed as a manufacturer of firearms.

A company provides frames to a subcontractor company that performs machining operations on the frames and returns the frames to the original company which assembles and sells the completed firearms.
Both companies are engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms and should be licensed as manufacturers of firearms.

A company produces barrels for firearms and sells the barrels to another company that assembles and sells complete firearms.
Because barrels are not firearms, the company that manufactures the barrels is not a manufacturer of firearms. The company that assembles and sells the firearms should be licensed as a manufacturer of firearms.

A company receives firearm frames from individual customers, attaches stocks and barrels and returns the firearms to the customers for the customers' personal use.
The operations performed on the firearms were not for the purpose of sale or distribution. The company should be licensed as a dealer or gunsmith, not as a manufacturer of firearms.

A company acquires one receiver, assembles one firearm, and sells the firearm.
The company is not manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business and is not engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms. This company does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer.

An individual acquires frames or receivers and assembles firearms for his personal use, not for sale or distribution.
The individual is not manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution and is not required to be a licensed manufacturer.

A gunsmith regularly buys military type firearms, Mausers etc., and sporterizes them for resale.
The gunsmith is in the business of manufacturing firearms and should be licensed as a manufacturer.

A gunsmith buys semiautomatic pistols or revolvers and modifies the slides to accept new Style f sights. The sights are not usually sold with these firearms and do not attach to the existing mounting openings.
The gunsmith offers these firearms for sale. This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

A gunsmith buys government model pistols and installs drop-in precision trigger parts or other drop-in parts for the purpose of resale.
This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms, as the gunsmith is purchasing the firearms, modifying the firearms and selling them. The gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

A gunsmith buys surplus military rifles, bends the bolts to accept a scope, and then drills the receivers for a scope base. The gunsmith offers these firearms for sale.
This would be considered the manufacturing of firearms and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

A gunsmith buys surplus military rifles or pistols and removes the stocks, adds new stocks or pistol grips, cleans the firearms, then sends the firearms to a separate contractor for bluing. These firearms are then sold to the public.
This would be considered manufacturing of firearms and the gunsmith should be licensed as a manufacturer.

A company purchases surplus firearms, cleans the firearms then offers them for sale to the public.
The company does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer.

[bwaites]

Thank you Bjorn!

[BjornF16]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/licensee...iness.html

Q: May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.


Q: Who may ship handguns through the U.S. Postal Service?

Federal firearm licensees may send an unloaded handgun in the mail to another FFL in customary trade shipments. Handguns also may be mailed to any officer, employee, agent, or watchman who is eligible under 18 U.S.C. 1715 to receive pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person for use in connection with his or her official duties.

However, postal service regulations must be followed. Any person proposing to mail a handgun must file with the postmaster, at the time of mailing, an affidavit signed by the addressee stating that the addressee is qualified to receive the firearm, and the affidavit must bear a certificate stating that the firearm is for the official use of the addressee. See the current Postal Manual for details.

The Postal Service recommends that all firearms be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. (See also questions “May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?” and “May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?”)


Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.
[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]


Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

[davidj]

This is a season of faith, hope, and as we begin a New Year I would encourage us all to make the world a better and brighter place, in spite of the darkness that seems to gather!

Let us strive to shoot more and argue less this wonderful Season which celebrates both the birth of Christ and the birth of a New Year!

Well Said. HAPPY NEW YEAR to ALL of you.

[BjornF16]

Since barrels are not "firearms", there is no issue with a non FFL individual Cerakoting barrels for a profit, whether it is their primary business or a hobby. The same applies to other non-serialized components.

[cory]

Alright Bjorn you seem to know your way around the ATF "laws" a pretty well. I've got a question, I'm not looking to start a debate, I'm looking for ATF statutes.

Can I own a 10.5" upper (not mounted to anything) without having an sbr tax stamped lower or pistol lower, while owning other ARs?

[explorecaves]

Alright Bjorn you seem to know your way around the ATF "laws" a pretty well. I've got a question, I'm not looking to start a debate, I'm looking for ATF statutes.

Can I own a 10.5" upper (not mounted to anything) without having an sbr tax stamped lower or pistol lower, while owning other ARs?

You can, but if by some chance the officials have reason to look at your inventory you could be accused of having an SBR. Personally, I would get a cheap pistol lower to put it on while you wait for the tax stamp.

[BjornF16]

Alright Bjorn you seem to know your way around the ATF "laws" a pretty well. I've got a question, I'm not looking to start a debate, I'm looking for ATF statutes.

Can I own a 10.5" upper (not mounted to anything) without having an sbr tax stamped lower or pistol lower, while owning other ARs?

I'm not a lawyer, and I've heard varying opinions on this. The best guidance would be from: ATF Ruling 2011-4 http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rul...2011-4.pdf

However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (b) convert a complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13.

I'm afraid the ATF would say you are in violation of NFA if you have other rifle ARs present.

Personally, I had my 11.5" upper mounted to a pistol lower until my SBR stamp arrived. I repeated the process for my 2nd SBR.

[Kikn]

I agree with your assesment. I've read through all or most of the NFA items when I was looking to get my suppressor and stumbled across the SBR section.

And as I read it. It is legal to have the SBR but if you have another item with you that the SBR can put on then you have a situation where it could become an illegal item and therefor since there is a possiblitiy of it being illegal it is illegal and you are in violation of the law and will then be sent to pound you in the **** penetentuary for a very long time.

If I had a SBR attached to a pistol I might just be inclined to have the front pins permantely welded and the section for the stock welded to prevent the addition of a stock.

Better safe than sorry.

I'm not a lawyer, and I've heard varying opinions on this. The best guidance would be from: ATF Ruling 2011-4 http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rul...2011-4.pdf



I'm afraid the ATF would say you are in violation of NFA if you have other rifle ARs present.

Personally, I had my 11.5" upper mounted to a pistol lower until my SBR stamp arrived. I repeated the process for my 2nd SBR.

[dmsims21]

Would it be wrong to hijack this thread and talk about how awesome Bwaites's guns are?
I mentioned on the lost ATF thread that I wish I was his child so I could inherit his guns. That is still true.

[BjornF16]

From US Code 18:

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
© as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
(E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms imported; and
(F) as applied to an importer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition imported.

(22) The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this paragraph, the term “terrorism” means activity, directed against United States persons, which—
(A) is committed by an individual who is not a national or permanent resident alien of the United States;
(B) involves violent acts or acts dangerous to human life which would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States; and
© is intended—
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

[bwaites]

Would it be wrong to hijack this thread and talk about how awesome Bwaites's guns are?
I mentioned on the lost ATF thread that I wish I was his child so I could inherit his guns. That is still true.

LOL! It WOULD be wrong! There are 4 genetically linked offspring, 8 genetically linked grandchildren so far, and 4 In-laws ahead of you, but if you want to get onto the end of the line, send a small donation to.......

Just kidding! They're spoken for!

Back to the ATF thread! Good information being shared here.

[bwaites]

Bjorn, any thoughts on Auto Sear possession?

[BjornF16]

Not that I agree, but the ATF considers drop in auto sears (DIAS) to be machine guns in and of themselves. If you don't have a stamp, the ATF considers them illegal. They are even going after pre 1981 DIAS which were supposedly "grandfathered" in their 1981 determination.

AmmoLand has an article on confiscation of pre-1981 DIAS: http://www.ammoland.com/2013/07/atf-conf...z2p5jSOswO


Also good article on Gun News: http://www.gunnews.com/atf-confiscating-...uto-sears/

The belief that pre-81 DIAS’s were exempt continued in spite of a ruling in 1998 from the US Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit which declared that the ATF did not have the authority to “grandfather” or exempt pre-81 DIAS’s. That determination was not widely reported, nor was there any apparent effort on the part of ATF to enforce the ruling. In May of this year, the determination of the 7th Circuit was echoed, and expanded upon by judges in the Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit. I wrote a column at the time warning that not only DIAS’s, but a variety of other firearms and devices that have long been understood to be fully legal, are actually completely illegal (at least in those Circuits) and that the owners of these devices everywhere are in jeopardy.

ATF rulings:

Held: The auto sear known by various trade names including “AR15 Auto Sear,” “Drop In Auto Sear,” and “Auto Sear II,” is a combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon to shoot automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. Consequently, the auto sear is a machine gun as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(b).
With respect to the machine gun classification of the auto sear under the National Firearms Act, pursuant to 26 U.S.C. 7805(b), this ruling will not be applied to auto sears manufactured before November 1, 1981. Accordingly, auto sears manufactured on or after November 1, 1981, will be subject to all of the provisions of the National Firearms Act and 27 C.F.R. Part 479.
Editor’s Note: Regardless of the date of manufacture of a drop in auto sear, possession of such a sear and certain M16 fire control parts is possession of a machine gun as defined by the NFA. Specifically, these parts are a combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun as defined in the NFA. (See “Important Information Concerning AR15-Type rifles” which follows)

Interesting

In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16, hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/do...ndix-b.pdf

I'm sure this post is sure to generate anti-ATF comments :mad:

[Kikn]

I read even the preban auto searse that don't have serial numbers can still be illegal because there is no way to verify that it is truly preban.

[NugginFutz]

Never mind which are legal, or not. Just try to get one of the pre-ban auto sears. Virtually impossible. I don't know if they are even considered transferrable.

[KentuckyBuddha]

You can order one of those Tac Con triggers that apparently are kosher for now instead. I have not tried it yet, but have ordered one.

http://tacfirecon.com/