PDW trunk gun quest

[BjornF16]

Fellers

I am looking for a "good" personal defense, cr4p hits the fan, trunk gun. I'm not interested in an AK47 since I primarily own AR15s or bolt guns. I know there is a lot of disinformation out there and I'm trying to weed through it all.

My expertise has been in M61A1 Vulcan when it comes to gun employment...so I need some help here.

My considerations:

1. 5.56 Nato - I've been told there are windshield penetration problems (true or false?). What round would be best?

2. Grendel - what round would be best?

3. 5.7mm x 28 - (I currently own an AR57, but am concerned about windshield, metal penetration). I like the 50 round magazines, but the only ammo I have is the -197SR.

4. 300 AAC Blackout - overkill?

I figure 16" barrel because of the legal ramifications of someone (wife, child) borrowing the car (or 14.5" with perm attached muzzle device).

I'm currently reloading with Grendel, and have the setup for .223. I had considered reloading 5.7x28, but that is not an easy round.

Thoughts?

[LR1955]

Fellers

I am looking for a "good" personal defense, cr4p hits the fan, trunk gun. I'm not interested in an AK47 since I primarily own AR15s or bolt guns. I know there is a lot of disinformation out there and I'm trying to weed through it all.

My expertise has been in M61A1 Vulcan when it comes to gun employment...so I need some help here.

My considerations:

1. 5.56 Nato - I've been told there are windshield penetration problems (true or false?). What round would be best?

2. Grendel - what round would be best?

3. 5.7mm x 28 - (I currently own an AR57, but am concerned about windshield, metal penetration). I like the 50 round magazines, but the only ammo I have is the -197SR.

4. 300 AAC Blackout - overkill?

I figure 16" barrel because of the legal ramifications of someone (wife, child) borrowing the car (or 14.5" with perm attached muzzle device).

I'm currently reloading with Grendel, and have the setup for .223. I had considered reloading 5.7x28, but that is not an easy round.

Thoughts?

BF16:

You stated ""good" personal defense, cr4p hits the fan, trunk gun."

If the 'cr4p hits the fan' scenario occurs, peculiar and uncommon cartridges will be of no value to you. Stick with the 5.56 as it is a very common cartridge and parts for 5.56 AR's are readily available -- such as bolts for when (not if) you shear a bolt lug.

If you start blasting at someone who is behind a windshield in a vehicle -- I figure that person would, as a minimum, become quite distracted seeing as how he is witnessing his windshield disintegrate in front of his eyes. From the flanks, any 5.56 bullet will go clean through anything but an up armored vehicle. And, I doubt a Grendel would do any better as the velocities of the Grendel's are immensely slower than a 5.56.

So, get a reliable 5.56 Carbine, a M-68, a rack and eight or so 30 round magazines of the issued M-855 and you are set. Won't win the National Championships with one but it will do the job in the conditions you identified. And, you can find ammo and spare parts over the entire country.

300 AAC Blackout?

LR55

[bwaites]

I'd definitely agree with LR1955. There are only 3 or 4 cartridges to consider for SHTF guns, and you rule out 2, 7.62x39 panda 5.45x39 by your choice of rifle. That leaves 5.56 and .308. You rule out .308 by speccing AR15.

That leaves 5.56. Stock up on green tip and mags and go for it!

[stanc]

I am looking for a "good" personal defense, cr4p hits the fan, trunk gun.

My considerations:

1. 5.56 Nato - I've been told there are windshield penetration problems (true or false?). What round would be best?

Windshield issues w/M855 Ball: True.

Best commercially available windshield/barrier load is probably Mk318, but there are other good factory loadings, such as those with TSX or TBBC bullets.

2. Grendel - what round would be best?

Best windshield/barrier load is AA's 120gr TSX.

3. 5.7mm x 28 - (I currently own an AR57, but am concerned about windshield, metal penetration). I like the 50 round magazines, but the only ammo I have is the -197SR.

Don't know what is the best load in this caliber.

4. 300 AAC Blackout - overkill?

IIRC, there are only two factory loads: 123gr FMJ, and a heavy bullet, subsonic round. I've seen no info on barrier defeat capability of either.

Thoughts?

There is some merit to the "commonly available caliber" idea advanced by LR1955, but IMO it depends on what type of SHTF scenario you envision.

If you're thinking of it being just you, your wife and kids, against whatever "hostiles" you happen to encounter, any caliber will do. That's because one shooter against multiple, comparably-armed opponents, is unlikely to survive long enough for ammo resupply to become a concern. And if you make it SOP to avoid combat, a good basic load of ammo will last quite a while, perhaps longer than the SHTF situation.

OTOH, if you figure on being part of a large group, a common (and preferably, commonly-available) caliber would seem to be a good idea.

[stanc]

P.S. Below is the packaging of Mk318 for the civilian market:


An additonal reason to choose a "barrier blind" expanding bullet over FMJ is the "end of the world as we know it" scenario. In that event, you may wish to kill animals (deer, bear, wild pig, etc) for food. FMJ is unlikely to give a one-shot kill, and that introduces two undesirable consequences:

a. The necessity to track a wounded animal through possibly rough terrain. That increases the chances of the shooter becoming injured, lost, and/or encountering other (perhaps hostile) hunters.

b. The necessity to fire multiple shots to kill the critter. Shoot one round, and anyone within hearing will know somebody else is around, but not where. Fire two, three, four or more shots, and you greatly increase the odds of other people getting a fix on your location.

[BjornF16]

Thanks for your replies!

The good news is I already have my SHTF gun then...RRA Elite CAR. Need to stockpile ammo for it and some extra bolts.

What do y'all suggest for long term ammo storage? I have several of the Cabela's dry ammo boxes, but I'm guessing there is more to proper storage than dropping ammo in the can.

I may buy the AA 14.5" upper as well...120 grains has to be better then 62, right? Or maybe a Beowulf? Besides, one can never have too many guns

300 AAC Blackout?

LR55 - see http://300aacblackout.com/ It is 7.62 x 35 using standard AR15 5.56 bolt, magazines.

Björn

[BjornF16]

If you're thinking of it being just you, your wife and kids, against whatever "hostiles" you happen to encounter, any caliber will do. That's because one shooter against multiple, comparably-armed opponents, is unlikely to survive long enough for ammo resupply to become a concern.

I am blessed...my wife and kids are all shooters.

[stanc]

What do y'all suggest for long term ammo storage?

G.I. ammo cans would be my choice.

[stanc]

I am blessed...my wife and kids are all shooters.

Cool. But, if you have only one gun in the car when the SHTF...

[BjornF16]

True enough...I was thinking more of being holed up on some acreage...hopefully it will not come to that and I wholeheartedly agree with the SOP of avoiding combat where possible.

[LRRPF52]

What was wrong with the M61A1 Vulcan...

P.S.: For those of you with dyslexia, that's not an M16A1.

[BjornF16]

What was wrong with the M61A1 Vulcan?

Nothing...I can't afford the upkeep!...

...but I do have a barrel mounted on the wall (see pic)...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]317[/ATTACH]

[RangerRick]

True enough...I was thinking more of being holed up on some acreage...hopefully it will not come to that and I wholeheartedly agree with the SOP of avoiding combat where possible.

It's sad that things are going such that a SHTF scenario now seems plausible in this country, and not just in a hurricane/earthquake/disaster incident.

[Variable]

It's sad that things are going such that a SHTF scenario now seems plausible in this country, and not just in a hurricane/earthquake/disaster incident.

Very true! It doesn't come up much on the Grendel board, but I've been getting gloomier and doomier for years!!! I've pretty much layed off recreational anything, and proceeded to prepping as best I can. I just haven't said much since I didn't want to seem too "tinfoil'ish".

I have a pile of 5.56 Colts laying around from when I could still afford toys: 11.5", Multiple 14.5", some 16'ers, and a couple of 20's, with piles of mags and ammo. Mostly M193, M855, M856, and some Mk262 Mod 1. I also have an Ares Shrike, but I don't take it all that seriously though. It's just a toy I currently can't afford to shoot.:o I will always maintain 5.56 for commonality if displaced.

I have three Grendels for at home use (10.5", 14.5", and 19.5"). With a moderately sized pile of Wolf 120 MPT and Hornady 123 Amax ammo. I have other loads and plenty of reload fixings. I'd opt for Grendel in my home AO, but would defer to 5.56 if displaced.

I also have 5.7 (SBR PS90 and Five Seven IOM), and mostly SS197 and SS192 ammo with some small stashes of SS190 and SS191. I was intrigued with this platform for a while, but I'm still leary of trusting it. I did kill a full size whitetail doe (broke leg) with a single broadside heart shot at twenty yards with the SS192 round, but that was ideal conditions and placement.... Were I to ever have to bug home or E&E on foot back from someplace, it'd be great to only have to hump a suppressed PS90 SBR and an IOM pistol, but I'd feel much better with at least a 5.56 platform.

I'm still favoring the 6.5 Grendel, but retaining the 5.56 for fallback in the event of being cut off from the home stash and having to scrounge/trade/beg elsewhere.

If the rest of the country would wake up and Grendelize I wouldn't have to worry about it.LOL For that reason I've Grendelized a number of my friends in my local area too.

[Variable]

Nothing...I can't afford the upkeep!...

...but I do have a barrel mounted on the wall (see pic)...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]317[/ATTACH]

Heh Heh! That's pretty cool! I have a GAU-8 30mm barrel gathering dust in the corner of my buddies gun shop, but I had to buy it, so it doesn't have any real sentimental value. I wish I could do something with it too, but these day's that just ain't gonna happen anymore.

[stanc]

Very true! It doesn't come up much on the Grendel board, but I've been getting gloomier and doomier for years!!! I've pretty much layed off recreational anything, and proceeded to prepping as best I can.

Why? D'ya think you're going to get out of life alive?

You're too young to be getting gloomier and doomier. Maybe you'd be in a better state of mind if you spent more time shooting, and less time worrying about the end of the world?

[steel89]

Not such a good idea to be discussing personal preperations in a public forum that I'm sure is closely monitored. No tinfoil hat here. After seeing what DOJ and BATF have put together in the recent past, I'd rather hold my cards close to my chest and Stack my own deck.

[fanofflyn]

Auto Ordinance TA-5 Pistol. Why not? .45 ACP, 20 to 50 rounds. SHTF is short range in my mind. Yes my 16 inch double fluted Satern Barreled AR with integral flash hider (so it's really a light weight 14 incher with 2 inches of integral flash hider) that weighs 4.5 pounds unloaded is not a bad choice either, and I already own it. So it's currently my trunk mounted gun, with my .45 Kimber next to my hand in the cockpit. But I thought the TA-5 still looks cool, lol.

--fanofflyn

[Clod Stomper]

I've heard this same theme over and over. Buy a 5.56, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x39, etc. for SHTF because they are very common rounds. But I must respectfully disagree. I am thoroughly of the belief that if indeed the S does HTF, you had better have what you need with you or stored away at your "compound" when it does. Case in point: as of November 5, 2008, which rounds could NOT be found at Walmart, or pretty much anywhere? And that wasn't even SHTF (well, I suppose that depends on your perspective). I couldn't even find .22 LR at Walmart for over a year. At least in bulk.

IMO, the best reason for choosing the common rounds is because you can stock up on them RIGHT NOW at a reasonable price.

One good reason to choose the Grendel for a SHTF round is: 1) To have a round that fits in the AR and is good up close and out to at least 500 yards. 2) One can stock up on inexpensive 7.62x39 which can be necked down to work in a Grendel if necessary. Yes, even steel cased ammo.

And IF one was far from home when the SHTF and didn't take plenty of ammo, they would want a rifle chambered in a round that is fairly common, but which everyone and their sister isn't going to be running out to buy. Don't know, maybe .270 Win or 7-08?

I'm not predicting bad stuff is gonna happen. But I know more and more people who are getting worried. And they are arming themselves and stocking up on basic necessities. Of course, there have always been folks like that. So, who knows?

Will

[rkflorey]

If you are seriously worried about glass penetration and still having enough bullet on the back side to do the necessary damage, you can't go wrong in .223 with the 60 gr. Nosler partion. Even in the 10.5 inch guns they hold together well and have little or no deviation at less than 30 deg. angle on the windshield. I was involved in the testing of every commercially loaded 223 we could get our hands on and it beat all hands down including the Military steel penetrator. Most fragmented so badly that penetration in geletin was minimal. The Nosler retained 90+% of its mass and penetration was 10 or more inches.