Maximum short range effectiveness on deer?

[JASmith]

...As for the barrel issue. A deer chest is small, like a human chest, volume may be 20-30 liters, probably less...

...Hydrostatic shock is a crappy word, but high speed hydraulic disruption caused by bullets in excess of 2500 FPS is a real thing!

bwaites, I respect your experience and concur that hydraulic disruption is an important source of damage.

Nonetheless, the chest is more than half air with lots of air-flesh interfaces. It is these interfaces that are most susceptible to disruption by a shock wave.

There is indeed a dynamic wound channel that is frequently described as proof of the existence of hydrostatic shock. It is more nearly the hydraulic disruption you mentioned. Nonetheless, the proximity of the dynamic cavity to a surface is what makes the difference between merely shaken and seriously stirred. (I meant to say 'seriously disrupted', but couldn't resist the 007 reference!)

[BjornF16]

500-lb bombs with daisy cutter fuzes have been known to bring 6 to 8 ft long fish to the surface for harvesting!

I love those daisy cutters!

Dropping dynamite in the water and shooting a 223 is completely different.

Just economy of scale as JASmith and Bwaites have suggested.

[XcountryRider]

If hydrastatic shock was a real significant contributor to killing large game we'd see lots of DRT's from not vital area shots instead of lots of deer running off and dieing hidden in the brush. Aim for the vitals and leave the hocus pocus to the high brow intellectual ballistians. So far i've read lots of suspect studies with lots of "data suggests" comments and the like. My BS meter is completely pegged. I'm putting this on the shelf filed next to man made global warming, leech therapy and colon cleansing treatments. No magic lights off switch from shock wave kills game. Carefully placed shots to the vitals does. Is it a secondary localized wounding mechanism sure (but use a different name).

[bwaites]

bwaites, I respect your experience and concur that hydraulic disruption is an important source of damage.

Nonetheless, the chest is more than half air with lots of air-flesh interfaces. It is these interfaces that are most susceptible to disruption by a shock wave.

There is indeed a dynamic wound channel that is frequently described as proof of the existence of hydrostatic shock. It is more nearly the hydraulic disruption you mentioned. Nonetheless, the proximity of the dynamic cavity to a surface is what makes the difference between merely shaken and seriously stirred. (I meant to say 'seriously disrupted', but couldn't resist the 007 reference!)

Actually, JA, maximal lung capacity in humans puts the air space at about 1/3 of volume, and thats a Lance Armstrong kind of number. Most adult healthy males, without lung scarring, have about a 6 liter capacity, and thats probably considerably less than 1/4 of the average chest volume. The rest of the interior of the chest is water and cell membranes. Water is between 65-90% of that volume. Those alveoli transfer shock really well, and so does all the rest of the tissue.

[BjornF16]

From an engineer's perspective, it is really the same as water hammer. Yes, water hammer exists.

Water hammer in pipes continues to propagate because of the relative inelasticity of the pipe walls and relative incompressibility of the fluid medium. In an animal, the shock wave is not confined by rigid pipe walls, and the flesh has elasticity.

A small animal has essentially no accumulator available to absorb the shock (low body mass). A larger animal (deer) would have an accumulator (body mass) to act as dampener. There is still some damage in the immediate area.

The Axis deer I took with a 3150 fps impact (calculated) from a 139 GMX shot from my 7mm Rem Mag in the vitals had a tremendous amount of "mush" in the vicinity of wound channel that nothing I've taken with a Grendel or .308 have ever exhibited. It was DRT.

Of course, it matters not what you choose to believe. I'll stick with physics and engineering.

[JASmith]

bwaites, thanks for the clarification. Nonetheless, a true shock wave is a very sharp jump in velocity and pressure. The thickness of the wave is normally treated as an instantaneous jump with zero thickness. In actuality, it tends to be a few molecules thick. So, even 1/4 of the volume occupied by open space in the alveoli leaves plenty of area for a true shock wave to wreak havoc.

The dynamic cavity is NOT a direct result of the shock wave passing through, but is more the large-scale movement of tissue that results from that velocity jump.

The link at Rathcoombe.net explains the conditions where a DRT can happen from the hydraulic load. The conditions have to be just right so that the shock can be transmitted through an artery to the brain.

Most of the time an animal drops right away is from the shock wave hitting major nerves, causing the animal to fall. If the wound doesn't cause the rapid loss of blood pressure need for fainting, then it will recover enough to get up and run. These situations add further confusion to the debate.

I normally try to avoid getting into this level of detail because the confusion level gets very high very fast.

Bottom line: If one wants to reliably anchor medium game, use a bullet that will expand while penetrating through the chest cavity and put that bullet in the middle of the vital zone.

[LRRPF52]

I think there is some threshold where a certain weight & construction bullet will kill from shock, but I believe most DRT's are a quick knock-out from consciousness caused by dynamic shock trauma, followed by rapid exsanguination from a well-placed shot. I'm suggesting a 2-part incapacitation event sequence:

* Bullet hits important area of the animal with large concentration of nerve endings and vital organs (heart/lungs), expanding well and distributing energy into this sensitive tissue, sending a more than supersonic shock wave through enough tissue media to cause a traumatic brain injury, or TBI-like event, resulting in instantaneous loss of consciousness.

* The animal falls like a sack to the earth, and bleeds out rapidly from the perforation of the heart/lungs, and expires. This can happen within seconds of hitting the ground.

The hunter's perspective is that the animal died immediately from shock trauma. Something made it lose consciousness either way, before bleeding out.

[Bigfoot]

Bout ten years ago some shooters didn't see the need for the 6.5G and 6.8 cause the 5.56 and 7.62x39 were good enough. Some posters here didn't feel the need for the 123 AMAX cause the 120 AMAX was good enough. Some didn't care about the 123 SST cause the 123 AMAX and 120 BT were good enough.

I say the more options the better and shoot whatever you want.

If shooters want manufactures to give us lighter, faster, tough bullets it's ok with me as long as they don't go round dunking 10-20 lb dogs into filled 5 gallon buckets and shooting bullets into them.

Can I get an amen?

[Kikn]

Speaking of nerves and drt with bows and arrows.

I took a buck recently tgis year that was essentially drt with a bow. The show was about 10 yards from a 8 foot elevation the shot was placed perfectly for a quartering away shot. I did not get a full pass through as the arrow deflected off of the ribs and ricocheted upwards into the spine taking All of the kinetic energy and dropping strait down.

Last year I took two deer with the grendel at ranges of 100 and 160 yards.

The 100 yard shot broadside was drt with a 120gr Barnes tsx

The 160 yard shot was with a 120 nosler ballistic tip. It only made it 10 yards.from the broadside shot...

Most important thing is shot placement.

I've shot plenty of hogs that have not been ideal shot placement with a bow and arrow and rifle and even with good shot placement often they are meaner and tougher and will run away with a $50 arrow or a $2 bullet for that matter never to be seen from again.

Deer are pretty soft skinned animals and can easily be taken with just a good shot in the vitals from nearly any weapon.

Perhaps that is why primitive man hunted deer....

[montana]

The problem is there are examples that contradict each other. I shot an Elk with a 3006 at 100 yards that dropped in its tracks with a Nosler partition bullet passing completely through it. I also shot a small deer with a 338 Winchester mag using a 250 grain sierra match king bullet that blew up on impact dumping all its energy into it, yet the deer ran for over a mile and was still alive when I found it and dispatched it with a head shot. There was a horrific wound on its chest yet it was still very much alive. High velocity bullets do have a shock value to them but penetrating and hitting vitals is paramount to quick kills. I'm sure certain animals are like certain people who have a stronger constitutions than others. Anyone who has done any boxing will know what I'm talking about.

[Bigfoot]

I agree that every bullet impact and animal shot will have differing results. But instead of comparing a Partition to a SMK I'm arguing that a 80 gr TTSX will make a greater impression on a deer when shot from a 25-06 than a 250 Savage. Or in the OPs scenario, assuming full penetration, that a 80 gr 6.5mm TTSX at 2900 impact velocity would hit harder than a 100 gr TTSX at 2700 and much harder than a 120 TTSX at 2400.

Kikn, yep hitting the spine drops em even with an arrow. When I practice w my handguns I'm trying to shoot though the torso no matter the angle and hit the spine, that's the quickest way to stop the um, critter. Same with high shoulder shots on game although with enough velocity you don't need to hit the spine, just hit close enough to shock the spine and the deer drops with lungs bleeding out. Nighty nite deer. Some people don't believe this works and that's ok w me.

[woohoo]

Back around 1970 when I started hunting my father gave me a 30-30 and a bunch of 170gr ammo. He said these heavy bullets will penetrate better. With all the deer and hogs I shot with that 30-30 some under 50 yards not 1 ever dropped in it's tracks. Of course none were head shots, back then we were taught heart -lug shots. In 76 I took the gunsmith course and turned a custom 30-06 barrel, mounted it one of dads pre 64 Win. and loaded up a bunch of Sierra 150gr SPBTs. Boom... flop with the first deer I shot...I noticed. I built a 270 and 243 between 77 and 84 both would also drop deer. I was always shooting lighter faster bullets. All the old codgers in deer camp would give me crap about my "little" bullets in my 243. Much later I found the Barnes bullets, pretty much all I use now. Light and fast works for me..for whatever reason. I'll stick with it.

[JASmith]

I ...I'm arguing that a 80 gr TTSX will make a greater impression on a deer when shot from a 25-06 than a 250 Savage. Or in the OPs scenario, assuming full penetration, that a 80 gr 6.5mm TTSX at 2900 impact velocity would hit harder than a 100 gr TTSX at 2700 and much harder than a 120 TTSX at 2400...

We need to define the term 'hit harder' to clarify. If one means that 'hit harder' means transfer more energy or momentum, then that is one thing.

If, on the other hand, one means 'more reliably faint from loss of blood pressure within about ten seconds', then the answer is different. Expanding bullets go through a transformation when they hit at a velocity within the manufacturer's recommended speed range. The expansion and the resultant ball-like shape the bullet takes causes the depth of penetration and diameter of the expanded bullet to be more dependent on weight than any other shooter-controlled parameter like muzzle velocity.

TTSX bullets tend to have a more consistent degree of expansion but slightly less than other bullets. That, combined with almost complete weight retention, allows them to penetrate rather deeply. The smaller diameter means a somewhat lower chance of intersecting an important blood vessel for each unit length of penetration. That is offset by the deeper penetration, which is why they tend to act like classic bullets weighing 50 to 70% more.

[montana]

Back around 1970 when I started hunting my father gave me a 30-30 and a bunch of 170gr ammo. He said these heavy bullets will penetrate better. With all the deer and hogs I shot with that 30-30 some under 50 yards not 1 ever dropped in it's tracks. Of course none were head shots, back then we were taught heart -lug shots. In 76 I took the gunsmith course and turned a custom 30-06 barrel, mounted it one of dads pre 64 Win. and loaded up a bunch of Sierra 150gr SPBTs. Boom... flop with the first deer I shot...I noticed. I built a 270 and 243 between 77 and 84 both would also drop deer. I was always shooting lighter faster bullets. All the old codgers in deer camp would give me crap about my "little" bullets in my 243. Much later I found the Barnes bullets, pretty much all I use now. Light and fast works for me..for whatever reason. I'll stick with it.

You do realize we are the old codgers now LOL. I too was told not to use fast light bullets because they would wound too many animals. They did have a point back then the way most bullets were constructed. I witnessed many Elk wounded with 270 Win that had good shot placement using light bullets. With the construction of certain bullets today this is a mute point. Bullets like Barnes TSX have served me well. Fast bullets that can hold together, expand and penetrate have given me the best results as long as I have done my part with shot placement. So goes the debate.

[LRRPF52]

You do realize we are the old codgers now LOL. I too was told not to use fast light bullets because they would wound too many animals. They did have a point back then the way most bullets were constructed. I witnessed many Elk wounded with 270 Win that had good shot placement using light bullets. With the construction of certain bullets today this is a mute point. Bullets like Barnes TSX have served me well. Fast bullets that can hold together, expand and penetrate have given me the best results as long as I have done my part with shot placement. So goes the debate.

Yeah, a 130gr soft point from the .270 Winchester going anywhere from 3050-3100fps, impacting the elk at 100yds at over 2800fps is possible to have a wound with very little penetration, but significant tissue damage on the surface. If you took that same bullet and shot it at 2700fps mv, it might hold together enough to penetrate. This is why we have premium bullets, to handle the overkill muzzle velocities at short range that simple cup and core bullets can't stay intact at.

The .270 Winchester gives you a bit more hunting reach if you use SST's, Partitions, Barnes etc. The .270 Win has been a great antelope, deer, and medium game cartridge out to 300yds, that you can use a 250yd or 300yd zero with. My old Weaver 4x scope with large blade and wire has a reticle that has two zeros built into it:

* The intersection of the blade post and wire is the 300yd zero
* The tip of the blade is the 100yd zero

Either way, with a 300yd zero and a cheap flat-based bullet, you're 4.5" high at 150-175yds. If you go with the 140gr SST, you have a better bullet for penetration.

One thing about .270 Winchester is that it is NOT simply a necked-down .30-06, as it first appears. The .270 Winchester is one of the few cartridges with a 65,000 SAAMI Maximum Average Operating Pressure, and this requires stronger brass with more substantial mass to it at the base and web.

As much as I have a fondness for the .270 Win from childhood, I wish that the 6.5x55 Swede had been in Jack O Connor's hands instead.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Col. Chamberlin . . . wrote: If I had to pick one of these theories as gospel, I’d still go along with the Hydraulic Reaction of the Body Fluids plus the reactions on the Central Nervous System.

Cool discussion. Interesting and informative. First and foremost I'm a diehard shot-placement proponent. Almost all of us are.

However, I used to be a dyed-in-the-wool "put a hole in a vital zone." As Col. Jeff Cooper used to say, "Let the air in and the blood out."

As a result of this discussion, I'm developing a hybrid understanding, where the shockwave of the temporary cavity must also be factored in, per Col. Chamberlin.

Here's the most obscure reference you'll have all day: The Yanomamo Indians of the Venezuelan jungle have "slapping" contests that can result in death. One warrior stands and braces himself, while the other winds up and with a running start and open palm slaps his opponent in the chest and belly area as hard as he can. His opponent often staggers back or crumples to his knees. Then it's his turn to slap the other. Sometimes someone dies in this way from damage to internal organs.

My point is, I'm thinking temporary cavity shock could have similar effects.

John

P.S. I'm still skeptical of any shockwave traveling through the vascular system beyond the temporary cavity. Would need a LOT more proof of THAT.

[montana]

Cool discussion. Interesting and informative. First and foremost I'm a diehard shot-placement proponent. Almost all of us are.

However, I used to be a dyed-in-the-wool "put a hole in a vital zone." As Col. Jeff Cooper used to say, "Let the air in and the blood out."

As a result of this discussion, I'm developing a hybrid understanding, where the shockwave of the temporary cavity must also be factored in, per Col. Chamberlin.

Here's the most obscure reference you'll have all day: The Yanomamo Indians of the Venezuelan jungle have "slapping" contests that can result in death. One warrior stands and braces himself, while the other winds up and with a running start and open palm slaps his opponent in the chest and belly area as hard as he can. His opponent often staggers back or crumples to his knees. Then it's his turn to slap the other. Sometimes someone dies in this way from damage to internal organs.

My point is, I'm thinking temporary cavity shock could have similar effects.

John

P.S. I'm still skeptical of any shockwave traveling through the vascular system beyond the temporary cavity. Would need a LOT more proof of THAT.

Maybe this is connected to shock wave traveling through the vascular system and maybe its all nonsense. Go to 2:20 on video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wMKJmQqC-M

[BluntForceTrauma]

Montana, interesting video. Thanks. But I'd probably want to clarify the difference between shock waves traveling through the vascular system vs. the nervous system.

I am still convinced by physiologists that say it's impossible for that kind of shock to travel as a wave through the blood in the vein and artery tubes such that a hit to your chest will explode your brain.

However, I seem to remember that the solar plexis, under the breastbone, is kind of a nerve hub and a strong blow to that region can shock the system and bring a guy to his knees. That makes sense to me, and, by extension, a game animal can be shocked or "knocked out" when the pressure of the temporary cavity shocks the spinal cord. This may not necessarily kill the animal, but it quickly bleeds out and dies WHILE it's unconscious from the nervous system shock.

So, an animal Dropping Right There is basically an animal knocked out from nervous system shock blasted by the temporary cavity, but is soon to bleed out in due course and permanently lose consciousness when the brain is starved for oxygen. Some animals "knocked out" in this way get back up and run off if there's no hole in a vital area, others, hit better and bleeding out, never get back up.

Just a theory. . . .

John

[montana]

Montana, interesting video. Thanks. But I'd probably want to clarify the difference between shock waves traveling through the vascular system vs. the nervous system.

I am still convinced by physiologists that say it's impossible for that kind of shock to travel as a wave through the blood in the vein and artery tubes such that a hit to your chest will explode your brain.

However, I seem to remember that the solar plexis, under the breastbone, is kind of a nerve hub and a strong blow to that region can shock the system and bring a guy to his knees. That makes sense to me, and, by extension, a game animal can be shocked or "knocked out" when the pressure of the temporary cavity shocks the spinal cord. This may not necessarily kill the animal, but it quickly bleeds out and dies WHILE it's unconscious from the nervous system shock.

So, an animal Dropping Right There is basically an animal knocked out from nervous system shock blasted by the temporary cavity, but is soon to bleed out in due course and permanently lose consciousness when the brain is starved for oxygen. Some animals "knocked out" in this way get back up and run off if there's no hole in a vital area, others, hit better and bleeding out, never get back up.

Just a theory. . . .

John

Makes sense to me.

[BjornF16]

P.S. I'm still skeptical of any shockwave traveling through the vascular system beyond the temporary cavity. Would need a LOT more proof of THAT.

We've taken many shots of 100-130 lb whitetail deer with impacts to the neck with DRT results. Curiously, blood vessels in the hindquarters were burst. This was not a single phenomenon.

For the vital zone shock wave on my axis (3100 fps impact), I did not see any such bursting of vessels in the hind quarter.

Coincidence? Maybe. But I haven't heard of a good explanation other than shock wave...