Grendel and 5R Rifling (Haters gonna Hate)

[calshipbuilder]

Remember we are talking about 2 rifles and not just one.

maybe you could slug the barrel to check bore diameter, know anyone who casts their own bullets?

[woohoo]

All of this seems kind of familiar ...deja vu like but, I can't quite put my finger on it

My handloads as far back as 2007 using 20" barrels will push 100gr Lapuas to 2800-2850, 123 Amax 2600-2650. That is using H335, H4895, 748, 2520, N530. Lost my data on 8208 and CFE.
At that velocity the loads still shoot sub-moa, any warmer and they start opening up as expected. Also no cratered primers or bulged cases or broken bolts in the last 5 years.

[XcountryRider]

When i get back from this trip i'm going to order some of the sand bullets to fire through the barrel and see if they will reduce the ES and get more consistent velocities. Thanks for the idea calshipbuilder. I'll shoot 20 Amax through the barrel to establish the ES then fire the sand bullets then shoot 20 more Amax and see if the ES was reduced with more consistent velocities.

http://www.davidtubb.com/ff-kit-264-6-5mm-cal

[NugginFutz]

When i get back from this trip i'm going to order some of the sand bullets to fire through the barrel and see if they will reduce the ES and get more consistent velocities. Thanks for the idea calshipbuilder. I'll shoot 20 Amax through the barrel to establish the ES then fire the sand bullets then shoot 20 more Amax and see if the ES was reduced with more consistent velocities.

http://www.davidtubb.com/ff-kit-264-6-5mm-cal

XCR

Just my opinion, but I would not suggest using those if there is any chance you can find a gunsmith that could hand lap that barrel, instead. A few years ago, I used the Tubbs bullets on a .243 with unsatisfactory results (eroded the throat out, adding .020 to the free bore). One of the area's leading gun makers and gunsmiths (ScoreHigh) had this to say: "Why in the world would you shoot sand paper bullets through your barrel with no idea of how much erosion you're committing?" He went on to explain how Tubb's bullets treat the entire bore the same, whereas most bores have varying degrees of imperfections along the length. (My eyes glazed over, somewhere around this part.)

Hand lapping is performed in stages, with close scrutiny of the bore as the lapping progresses. The lapping stops when it's no longer needed. The David Tubb's product cannot accomplish this. With the Tubb's Final Finish bullets, you essential send up to 50 bullets through your barrel with no checkpoints.

I suppose that if you have a particularly rough barrel, then there may not be much to risk. As for myself, I like to treat my toys as best as I can afford. If you do decide to proceed with the Tubbs bullets, be sure to thoroughly clean between EVERY shot. These little buggers leave quite a bit of abrasive behind.

Just my .02.

[Tedward]

XCR

Just my opinion, but I would not suggest using those if there is any chance you can find a gunsmith that could hand lap that barrel, instead. A few years ago, I used the Tubbs bullets on a .243 with unsatisfactory results (eroded the throat out, adding .020 to the free bore). One of the area's leading gun makers and gunsmiths (ScoreHigh) had this to say: "Why in the world would you shoot sand paper bullets through your barrel with no idea of how much erosion you're committing?" He went on to explain how Tubb's bullets treat the entire bore the same, whereas most bores have varying degrees of imperfections along the length. (My eyes glazed over, somewhere around this part.)

Hand lapping is performed in stages, with close scrutiny of the bore as the lapping progresses. The lapping stops when it's no longer needed. The David Tubb's product cannot accomplish this. With the Tubb's Final Finish bullets, you essential send up to 50 bullets through your barrel with no checkpoints.

I suppose that if you have a particularly rough barrel, then there may not be much to risk. As for myself, I like to treat my toys as best as I can afford. If you do decide to proceed with the Tubbs bullets, be sure to thoroughly clean between EVERY shot. These little buggers leave quite a bit of abrasive behind.

Just my .02.

I was about to say wow, cool and you just blew that.... but that's ok. I would rather hear of personal issues rather than finding out after it was to late. I prefer extra precautions and not try something someone else has had problems with. Guess I'll need to read up on this... Thanks

XCR, let us know your outcome if you proceed....

[XcountryRider]

Now i'm scared

[LRRPF52]

Every barrel-maker I have seen voids any warranties if you fire-lap their barrel.

[dmsims21]

Dan Lilja warns against hand lapping a finished barrel. They hand lap barrel blanks before the barrel is contoured and chambered. He explains on his website that the hand lapping process opens up the bore at the two ends. They cut several inches off of he muzzle end and cutting the chamber removes the larger bore section at that end. Read his FAQ section for a better explanation.

[XcountryRider]

If you look at the results of the F1 Master Chrony the results are more stable. The magno chrony gave a lower ES for the Satern and a higher ES for the Liberty. Looking at the F1 master the results aren't that different for the rifles. The Liberty only had a 14fps difference in ES.

24in Liberty Barrel had a MV of 2666fps and a ES of 43
24in Satern Barrel had a MV of 2635fps and a ES of 29

[XcountryRider]

200 yard 5 shot group with 18in Liberty barrel (AR Stoner) with 123gr SST loaded to COL 2.265in with 30.8gr of CFE223 at 2590fps.

[customcutter]

Must be the new math. :-)

[XcountryRider]

Must be the new math. :-)

5 holes there look again

[NugginFutz]

Nope - four holes. 5 shots!

[customcutter]

Sorry, old tired eyes and a quick look. Reading up on scopes and mounts.

[Tedward]

Were you aiming for the red? You missed.

How many times before you got those 5 in there on that target? I usually have to run a few targets for site in then get my presentable one.

Looks good and I'll have to try one of my 18" Side Chargers soon.
I think it will be this one.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4359[/ATTACH]

[XcountryRider]

Were you aiming for the red? You missed.

How many times before you got those 5 in there on that target? I usually have to run a few targets for site in then get my presentable one.

Looks good and I'll have to try one of my 18" Side Chargers soon.
I think it will be this one.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4359[/ATTACH]

I only had 5 rounds left from shooting at 100 so I gave it a go at 200. I adjusted the scope after the group.

[Tedward]

OK, sounds good. What break in did you do? I've heard all kids of stories and rumors but still not sure if it is necessary to the point of cleaning between each round.

These barrels Saturn/Liberty makes are great. Do you have a round count on your other barrels (24")? Like I said I'm just over the 1,000 and once I go thru my next batch of reloads, I'll be at 2,000.
I would like to know if anyone has round counts on the AR-Stoner barrels and how accurate they still are just for statistics. Maybe try to track the new barrel your using and I'll do the same. In a year we should have some number to match up on.

Thanks...

[adrenaline junkie]

I think you may be reading your test results wrong, It's possible that the BHW is actually the faster barrel of the three... If you handload. As Mr Alexander and others have pointed out, the barrel that produces the least friction, will have less pressure, and will shoot slower with factory loads. XCountryRider took offense to it, over the course of several pages, at the implication that the 5R would be slower due to lessened pressure.

With the BHW barrel producing less pressure, it might possible to work up loads that are running faster, but showing pressure signs later than the other barrels. It just shot slower because it was producing less pressure, and that pressure might be brought back up to match the others, at an even higher velocity.

My brother and I just put together an 18 inch BHW barrel 264LBC for him a few weeks ago, and with some of the handloads I had made for my 24 inch barrel, he was nearly 200fps slower. We started working up hotter loads of CFE223, and by the end, the same two guns were only 100FPS apart. WAY too many variables for me to try to state any of this as a fact of course. New barrel, vs old barrel. Temps were stable as we were loading in my basement, and stepping outside the house to shoot, but outside it was only 10 degrees etc. We simply haven't done enough testing to make any actual statements, but it's something I've been considering, and looking into on development of loads this spring/summer/fall even before I read this thread.

[XcountryRider]

I chronied my buddies 16in BHW barrel last weekend with factory Amax and it was going at 2385. Thats pretty far down for 2420fps that most folks are getting.

[adrenaline junkie]

Factory load. Less friction, less pressure, = less velocity.