Testing of M9 replacement to start next year

[KentuckyBuddha]

Strange indeed.

[stanc]

The 7.62×25mm Tokarev cartridge is a Russian bottle-necked pistol cartridge widely used in former Soviet and Soviet satellite states, China and Pakistan among other countries. The cartridge has since been replaced in Russian service by overpressure versions of the 9×19mm Parabellum.

Strange the russkies would dump it for 9mm +P

What's really strange is that, with all of the criticism of 9mm stopping power, some people want to drop down to .30 caliber or even smaller! :confused:

[cory]

What's really strange is that, with all of the criticism of 9mm stopping power, some people want to drop down to .30 caliber or even smaller! :confused:

It's not quite as simple as the size of the bullet. What we're talking about is essentially a rifle round in a pistol.

[stanc]

It's not quite as simple as the size of the bullet. What we're talking about is essentially a rifle round in a pistol.

Hmm. I must have missed that. All I've seen mentioned are pistol cartridges.

[KentuckyBuddha]

Hmm. I must have missed that. All I've seen mentioned are pistol cartridges.

The 5.7x28 is essentially a 223 that looks like somebody left it in the dryer too long, and it has the penetration/terminal effects like a hand-rifle.

You can get a similar effect on soft tissue and forfeit the armor penetration benefit with rounds like this: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/133875/...-box-of-20

The speed is there in the latter, but the energy would probably be divided over too large an area to penetrate kevlar as well as the 5.7x28 or similar chamberings. The 22 TCM would probably also not have as great a body armor penetration advantage either.

[bwaites]

The 5.7x28 is essentially a 223 that looks like somebody left it in the dryer too long, and it has the penetration/terminal effects like a hand-rifle.

You can get a similar effect on soft tissue and forfeit the armor penetration benefit with rounds like this: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/133875/...-box-of-20

The speed is there in the latter, but the energy would probably be divided over too large an area to penetrate kevlar as well as the 5.7x28 or similar chamberings. The 22 TCM would probably also not have as great a body armor penetration advantage either.

Penetration is projectile dependent. Get up to 2000FPS and you'll get penetration fairly easily with any projectile designed for it. The nice thing about .22 TCM is that the brass is .223 brass. We already make it, no new tooling at the .GOV/.MIL level to make the change. And .22 TCM is easily loaded, not so for 5.7 from what I've heard from guys that have them.

And the muzzle flash is simple to fix, use a flash retardent. Its there because so few powders have been explored so far.

[stanc]

The 5.7x28 is essentially a 223 that looks like somebody left it in the dryer too long, and it has the penetration/terminal effects like a hand-rifle.

You can describe the 5.7x28 with all the flowery prose you wish, but it's still a pistol cartridge. (I have no idea what a "hand-rifle" is, but doubt that it's used by the armed forces.)

You can get a similar effect on soft tissue and forfeit the armor penetration benefit with rounds like this: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/133875/...-box-of-20

The speed is there in the latter, but the energy would probably be divided over too large an area to penetrate kevlar as well as the 5.7x28 or similar chamberings.

Of course it wouldn't. It is a fragmenting hollowpoint, after all. But, MagSafe used to make 2000 fps 9mm FMJ loads that sliced through Kevlar like the proverbial hot knife in butter.

[KentuckyBuddha]

Well done. You can call it purple prose if you like, but it behaves nothing like an analog pistol round in cavitation effect. I was trying to be entertaining and get the point across. I would rather have a sister working in a house of ill-repute than recommend analog pistol ammo to the military for any reason whatsoever. If you insist that in your opinion the difference difference is solely pedantic, let's just leave that conversation to end there then.

They also had an IQ round made by Aguilla that also would go through armor too despite having a deep hollowpoint shape but the perimeter of the bullet would stretch the kevlar and the center would then fly through and then turn the projectile inside out. Not really the same thing though as the Liberty or the MagSafe. But since both the Aguilla and the MagSafe are no longer available, it doesn't matter too much anymore either.

[frank]

I won a few boxes of Liberty Halo 9mm at a match. Any good or is it just a gimmic?

I doubt that we will see a change from 9mm. Limited to hard ball, all pistol rounds suck. I know that there is a push to go back to .45, but there is a considerable firepower gap between 9mm and .45. If someone in a firefight is down to their pistol, they are in dire times. They need all the ammo that they can carry at that point. I'd rather see a change to proper defensive ammo; our enemies certainly don't care about the Hague Convention.

[KentuckyBuddha]

Penetration is projectile dependent. Get up to 2000FPS and you'll get penetration fairly easily with any projectile designed for it. The nice thing about .22 TCM is that the brass is .223 brass. We already make it, no new tooling at the .GOV/.MIL level to make the change. And .22 TCM is easily loaded, not so for 5.7 from what I've heard from guys that have them.

And the muzzle flash is simple to fix, use a flash retardent. Its there because so few powders have been explored so far.

The 5.7 is absolutely not forgiving for errors in loading, that is true. I didn't know that about the 223 brass, that would be a big advantage indeed though I expect it would still take a fair amount of retooling to get Lake City churning it out like our current ammo, but nothing like going to a new thing entirely like FN or H&K stuff. The armor penetration round/pointed probably would not matter nearly so much at that diameter as either way you are talking a huge amount of energy in a tiny space.

[bwaites]

The 5.7 is absolutely not forgiving for errors in loading, that is true. I didn't know that about the 223 brass, that would be a big advantage indeed though I expect it would still take a fair amount of retooling to get Lake City churning it out like our current ammo, but nothing like going to a new thing entirely like FN or H&K stuff. The armor penetration round/pointed probably would not matter nearly so much at that diameter as either way you are talking a huge amount of energy in a tiny space.

Great article here:

http://www.shotgunnews.com/2013/01/09/sm...cm-review/

Many people think its a necked down 9mm, but the case is actually longer than 9mm so you wouldn't be able to do that. The guys at Lake City do all kinds of weird stuff, I'm betting turning a .223 brass line into this stuff would be a walk in the park, especially now that we are downsizing and bringing people home. (Assuming our current dictator doesn't decide to go to war in Syria!)

[stanc]

Well done. You can call it purple prose if you like, but it behaves nothing like an analog pistol round in cavitation effect. I was trying to be entertaining and get the point across. I would rather have a sister working in a house of ill-repute than recommend analog pistol ammo to the military for any reason whatsoever. If you insist that in your opinion the difference difference is solely pedantic, let's just leave that conversation to end there then.

No, that isn't what I said. I realize that the 5.7mm spitzer bullet yaws like a rifle bullet in gelatin, instead of plowing straight ahead like a 9mm or .45 ACP round nose projectile. My point is that the bullet's behavior does not make the 5.7x28 a rifle cartridge, whether "essentially" or otherwise. Despite the bullet's shape and the bottleneck case, it is a pistol (and SMG) cartridge.

They also had an IQ round made by Aguilla that also would go through armor too despite having a deep hollowpoint shape but the perimeter of the bullet would stretch the kevlar and the center would then fly through and then turn the projectile inside out. Not really the same thing though as the Liberty or the MagSafe. But since both the Aguilla and the MagSafe are no longer available, it doesn't matter too much anymore either.

It doesn't matter if the MagSafe ammo is now unavailable. What's important is that it demonstrated the feasibility of producing 2000 fps, Kevlar-defeating loads that can be used in 9mm service pistols.

[LRRPF52]

The interesting thing about this discussion is that we're talking about the potential to put the last century's pistol cartridges to bed with a new military sidearm cartridge. Is there anything in the solicitation that allows for or even entertains a new caliber besides 9mm and .40 S&W?

[KentuckyBuddha]

Great article here:

http://www.shotgunnews.com/2013/01/09/sm...cm-review/

Many people think its a necked down 9mm, but the case is actually longer than 9mm so you wouldn't be able to do that. The guys at Lake City do all kinds of weird stuff, I'm betting turning a .223 brass line into this stuff would be a walk in the park, especially now that we are downsizing and bringing people home. (Assuming our current dictator doesn't decide to go to war in Syria!)

That IS an interesting article! It would be easy to pick out a nice selection of pills to go in that TCM, to include all of those in the 5.7x28 choices.

[joker31]

The interesting thing about this discussion is that we're talking about the potential to put the last century's pistol cartridges to bed with a new military sidearm cartridge. Is there anything in the solicitation that allows for or even entertains a new caliber besides 9mm and .40 S&W?

No and we're talking about Big Army....The people who after 200+ years discovered a zipper for shirt and Pants Fly's..... No Weirdo rounds are gonna fly, if its not proven in Battle or Law Enforcement in huge numbers, it will never in a million years fly with Big Army. These are Downton Abbey era minds in Buck Rodgers times. Think more 1980's and less 21st Century.

These people caved to the Pressure of the Sierra club over Lead Content of bullets. Funny thing is the lawyers are the least conservative ones in the room when it comes to this stuff, they are very close on issuing "Real Expanding Bullets" to troops. The JAG Colonel that gave our Non-ISAF Briefing pretty much told us we were acting in a Law Enforcement Capacity so use Hollow Points.... The guy also told us... "F Them, if they look like they could have a weapon of any sort even a stick, shoot them in the back....Shoot them in the face....It doesnt matter",and he sat on the Shooting Board at Theatre Command!!!

Realistically, no modern round will be selected because Army innovation is dead... the M16 killed it with 50 years of complaints and the whole 7.62 thing with nato killed any support for a unified round for nato outside of 9mm.

If Syria turns into anything big, the Military will revolt and say screw you guys, I'm going home! faster than a South Park Episode. I know I was worn down and everyone I knew was too. With only .45% of our population serving, I think its time for somebody else to represent us... I dig the Appreciation but damn, stop writing checks already, we're getting tired.

[LRRPF52]

That reminds me of our CENTCOM AOR ROE briefing before we kicked off OIF1. I couldn't believe it. This butter bar JAG weenie comes out onto the stage in York Theater on Fort Bragg, where all the NCO's in 2nd Brigade of the 82nd had been gathered, and plays Let the Bodies Hit the Floor before going into a very animated ROE briefing about how we were to shoot and ask questions later.

Probably not the best thing to tell abused SAW gunners with Team Leaders and Squad Leaders who took the ROE briefing seriously...

We don't need a modern round for the pistol/PDW, just resurrect the 7.62x25! Ain't gonna happen, of course.

[Tony Williams]

Many people think its a necked down 9mm, but the case is actually longer than 9mm so you wouldn't be able to do that.

As I understand it, the overall length of the .22 TCM is too great to fit into 9x19-sized actions and magazines - like the 7.62x25, it needs a gun with a longer action (.45, in the case of the TCM).

The 6.5x25 CBJ round is the same overall size as the 9x19 so all you need is a new barrel - you can use the same magazines.

[KentuckyBuddha]

The Rock Island pistol uses both 22 TCM and 9mm in the same magazines as well with a barrel and spring swap only being required to switch. Also if we are to believe the data they list on wiki, which is I admit not unimpeachable, they list max OAL for 22 TCM as 1.265 in (32.1 mm) and 9MM Parabellum as 29.69 mm (1.169 in). Seems like it makes sense though. : )

[bwaites]

As I understand it, the overall length of the .22 TCM is too great to fit into 9x19-sized actions and magazines - like the 7.62x25, it needs a gun with a longer action (.45, in the case of the TCM).

The 6.5x25 CBJ round is the same overall size as the 9x19 so all you need is a new barrel - you can use the same magazines.

That is possibly the case. The only current factory offering is a double stack 1911 offering from Rock Island. However, the round runs in standard 9mm mags, so I can't imagine why it wouldn't run just fine in any pistol designed for 9mm.

AS KentuckyBuddha points out, the only thing necessary to change in the Rock Island offering is the barrel and spring combo from 22TCM to 9mm.

[joker31]

The big thing about the tcm and the 9mm is that RI is shipping a 9mm barrel with the tcm products to cure the ammo problem. That is where the similarity ends from what I have seen and when I fired it, the recoil was about like a 9mm. I dont personally own it, a friend does. I do plan on picking one up down the road but I would like a red dot on it for my uses. I plan on using it to humanly dispatch feral hogs that are down already. I was using a 38 Super for it because I could drop one if it was neccesary.