Bags or bipods?

[Nukes]

Maybe I am not loading it properly. Whether 6.5 Grendel or .338 LM, I am using axial forward pressure short of moving the bipod forward, nothing radical.

[bwaites]

Bipods bounce regardless of what I do. I've even watched elite F-Class FTR shooters, videoing from the side, and their bipods bounce, pre-loaded or not. Some of the more expensive bipods bounce less, but they all bounce some.

I use a Sinclair F-Class bipod on my 7mm WSM and 28" Grendel, and it bounces, too. Like all bipods, it bounces much worse on hard surfaces like benches. I'm considering a shock absorbing cushion for mounting between the Bipod and the rifle to see if that helps. But that bounce and the repositioning is the major reason most F-Class Open shooters use bags on rests. However, F Open at the National level has been won by at least one shooter using a bipod.

The only partial solution to bounce is weight. My heavy 28" bounces much less and more predictably than my light 20" Grendel. The 20" bounces enough on a bench that at times we've started laughing watching someone shoot it. However, get that 20" down on the ground, where it belongs, and get the legs positioned correctly, and a stable position behind it, and the bounce either disappears to a great extent, or I don't notice it!

The bipods with spring loaded legs seem worse than the solid legs on the F Class Sinclair, but that may be perception, I haven't thought to film the same rifle on both, guess that's a project for next trip!

The best groups I've shot with the 28" have all been off bipods, but my best groups period, with my F Class or 20" Grendel have been from bags. I have shot some TINY groups with the 7mm WSM and the Sinclair F Class bipod, though, and its what I compete with. (I'm too lazy to haul a heavy base and bags around all day at a match, and I'm not THAT competitive!)

[Nukes]

When I was an active 3-Gun competitor I tried to design stages that didn't allow for much "gamesmanship." Present the problem and solve it on the spot. Too many times I'd see competitors planning their every move, closing their eyes, visualizing the exact sequence—seemed too divorced from the reality that 3-Gun was originally supposed to recreate. Certainly the "gamesmanship" approach did develop certain skill sets, but I enjoyed the problem solving more than how fast I could empty a space gun.

In that context I wonder, do professional XLR shooters wear bags? Do they hang bags off their rifles? For that matter, do they use bipods?

As best I can discern as a non-professional shooter, professional XLR shooters use bags and bipods to improvise the necessary positions, but do not wear or hang their bags. Am I right or wrong on that?

Where does "real world" cross into "gamesmanship"?

[montana]

When I was an active 3-Gun competitor I tried to design stages that didn't allow for much "gamesmanship." Present the problem and solve it on the spot. Too many times I'd see competitors planning their every move, closing their eyes, visualizing the exact sequence—seemed too divorced from the reality that 3-Gun was originally supposed to recreate. Certainly the "gamesmanship" approach did develop certain skill sets, but I enjoyed the problem solving more than how fast I could empty a space gun.

In that context I wonder, do professional XLR shooters wear bags? Do they hang bags off their rifles? For that matter, do they use bipods?

As best I can discern as a non-professional shooter, professional XLR shooters use bags and bipods to improvise the necessary positions, but do not wear or hang their bags. Am I right or wrong on that?

Where does "real world" cross into "gamesmanship"?

People should never get games mixed up with real world confrontations. Multi-gun and mixed martial arts are wonderful for improving ones skill but they take on a whole new meaning where playing fair and abiding by rules never enter the picture.

[NugginFutz]

People should never get games mixed up with real world confrontations. Multi-gun and mixed martial arts are wonderful for improving ones skill but they take on a whole new meaning where playing fair and abiding by rules never enter the picture.

+1

If you're "playing fair" in the real world, then you've handed your opponent the opening he's looking for.

[Tedward]

Bipods bounce regardless of what I do. I've even watched elite F-Class FTR shooters, videoing from the side, and their bipods bounce, pre-loaded or not. Some of the more expensive bipods bounce less, but they all bounce some.

I use a Sinclair F-Class bipod on my 7mm WSM and 28" Grendel, and it bounces, too. Like all bipods, it bounces much worse on hard surfaces like benches. I'm considering a shock absorbing cushion for mounting between the Bipod and the rifle to see if that helps. But that bounce and the repositioning is the major reason most F-Class Open shooters use bags on rests. However, F Open at the National level has been won by at least one shooter using a bipod.

The only partial solution to bounce is weight. My heavy 28" bounces much less and more predictably than my light 20" Grendel. The 20" bounces enough on a bench that at times we've started laughing watching someone shoot it. However, get that 20" down on the ground, where it belongs, and get the legs positioned correctly, and a stable position behind it, and the bounce either disappears to a great extent, or I don't notice it!

The bipods with spring loaded legs seem worse than the solid legs on the F Class Sinclair, but that may be perception, I haven't thought to film the same rifle on both, guess that's a project for next trip!

The best groups I've shot with the 28" have all been off bipods, but my best groups period, with my F Class or 20" Grendel have been from bags. I have shot some TINY groups with the 7mm WSM and the Sinclair F Class bipod, though, and its what I compete with. (I'm too lazy to haul a heavy base and bags around all day at a match, and I'm not THAT competitive!)

As for barrel length and recoil causing movement, does the length of the barrel seem to be a factor of accuracy? You can support the gun all you want but when you pull the trigger, by the time the bullet exits the barrel if it moves does that affect the accuracy? On another post someone was saying it moves out of the barrel in .000256 milliseconds so the length is not a factor. I understand a lighter barrel will bounce like you said so which way do ya go....24" and heavy or short 16"and lite??

Reason I'm asking is I have a brand new unfired 16" I was about to use but might sell. I also have a new LW 20" coming soon so should I just wait and use that for woods hunting. I wont carry a bag but will have my bi-pod. My 24" is really accurate from bench with bags and bi-pods but to big to carry around.

[TheOTHERmaninblack]

Harmonics are what determine accuracy (to a large extent). This is why "pet" loads cannot be reliably mass produced by ammunition manufacturers. That being said, yes, the barrel is going to move as the bullet travels down the tube. But so long as it moves in the same manner and to the same degree (harmonics) the bullet will consistently leave at the same point in the travel. Which means that accuracy in the age of glass is far less a function of barrel length than it was in the days of irons.

[Nukes]

People should never get games mixed up with real world confrontations. Multi-gun and mixed martial arts are wonderful for improving ones skill but they take on a whole new meaning where playing fair and abiding by rules never enter the picture.

Exactly the point (noting that moral imperatives should still rule our response in life-threatening encounters, including war).

Who, in a life-threatening encounter, would forego groin or occipital hits? Analogously, who then, in uncertain expectation of a life threatening encounter, would trade the deployment speed and adaptability of a bipod for the accuracy of wearing bags instead?

...by the time the bullet exits the barrel...On another post someone was saying it moves out of the barrel in .000256 milliseconds...

The published numbers I have seen are on the order of 1 millisecond from ignition to exit.

[bwaites]

As for barrel length and recoil causing movement, does the length of the barrel seem to be a factor of accuracy? You can support the gun all you want but when you pull the trigger, by the time the bullet exits the barrel if it moves does that affect the accuracy? On another post someone was saying it moves out of the barrel in .000256 milliseconds so the length is not a factor. I understand a lighter barrel will bounce like you said so which way do ya go....24" and heavy or short 16"and lite??

Reason I'm asking is I have a brand new unfired 16" I was about to use but might sell. I also have a new LW 20" coming soon so should I just wait and use that for woods hunting. I wont carry a bag but will have my bi-pod. My 24" is really accurate from bench with bags and bi-pods but to big to carry around.

Short barrels have less "whip" and therefore less potential loss of accuracy. The most accurate barrels are heavy, relatively thick barrels. We use longer barrels to achieve greater velocity, trying for that sweet spot. But if I could get a 123 to 2650 FPS out of a 16 inch barrel, I'd feel like I'd found the Grail. I wouldn't consider hunting with more than a sixteen inch barrel unless I was just stand hunting. 4 inches doesn't seem like much until you start busting brush or hiking through rough country and it keeps snagging! You'll be happy you went 16"!

[LRRPF52]

This was my first question when I was advised to put together a sand sock during my first formal Sniper training course: "Where am I going to pack that thing?"

One solution I really like is the use of peas in a smaller sand sock, enclosed in a plastic bag within the sand sock material. When you get put out on an extended surveillance/overwatch mission, and you run out of food, the contents of the sand sock double as your emergency meal.

The one bipod I like over all others is the Sako TRG bipod. A lot of input went into the design of the TRG, and it was taken directly from Snipers within the Finnish Defense Forces, especially those guys who are gun guys. They actually modeled the TRG bipod off of the M60 bipod in some ways, but the TRG bipod lets the center of mass of the rifle at the fulcrum hang beneath the hinge points of the bipod legs. It also has rounded teeth on the bipod feet, which will even purcahse pretty well into wood. Here is a McMillan Bros. A4 stocked Sako 75 with a custom TRG bipod receptacle bedded into the front of the rather large fore end.



The sand sock you see there has the peas inside it as I described, which one of the Finnish Snipers I know uses.

[Nukes]

Though not quite as underslung as the pendulum style bipod, this side-mount bipod seemed to have similar advantage, but was warned away from it by an experienced user who preferred the Harris to any other bipod for the original intended use on an SRS:



It was an even pricier risk a year ago when I first considered it.

[Sarge12486]

Maybe a dumb question, but...

What are you guys using for sand bags at the range? Does your range have sandbags just laying around, or do you buy them or make them? My range just has carpet-covered 4x4 blocks that Ive been using for a rest, but I have a feeling a sandbag would probably work a lot better. Ive seen the cadwell bags online as well, worth it???

[parallax]

That's a good question.

For me, my wife makes mine from coated canvas and fills them with sand, but I prefer the later type she's been making from old blue jean legs filled with washed and polished aquarium rocks. The clean polished rocks don't create dust like the first type she made using small round gardening stones. Those and regular sand will get things dirty pretty quickly.

I'm going to try some with air soft pellets next for a lighter weight bag. I think the air soft pellets will work great for squeeze bags.

[frank]

Maybe a dumb question, but...

What are you guys using for sand bags at the range? Does your range have sandbags just laying around, or do you buy them or make them? My range just has carpet-covered 4x4 blocks that Ive been using for a rest, but I have a feeling a sandbag would probably work a lot better. Ive seen the cadwell bags online as well, worth it???

My wife made some out of a suede-like material. Cut a square, fold it in half, machine sew the three sides leaving a fill hole, shove a funnel in the hole to fill with play sand, then hand sew the hole to close.

Back in my bachelor days, I just used a bag of rice from the grocery store.

[Tedward]

Maybe a dumb question, but...

What are you guys using for sand bags at the range? Does your range have sandbags just laying around, or do you buy them or make them? My range just has carpet-covered 4x4 blocks that Ive been using for a rest, but I have a feeling a sandbag would probably work a lot better. Ive seen the cadwell bags online as well, worth it???

Do you go to Clark Brothers? See your about 20 miles from me. And yes, the 4x4 also gave it away before I even looked where you were from.

[Sarge12486]

Haha yeah Clark brothers. It's better than nothing so I shouldn't complain.

So what ya'll are saying is I need a wife .... guess I'll just go buy the bag of rice then.

[noone]

I have tested Bipod, bags, and bipod resting only on a soft surface like dense sleeping pad foam. In all cases, the bipod changes how the rifle shoots. Hard surfaces change it the most. Having the bipod resting on the concrete bench makes the biggest change, followed by having the legs of the bipod on the sleeping pad foam, and the bags front and rear have always given me the best groups, and most consistent groups.

All that having been said, now that I have that information, I shoot the rifle like it will be used in the field. I shoot off the bipod in front with a bag at the rear.

I figure there is no benefit to squeezing a wee bit more accuracy at the bench if I won't be able to use that accuracy at a practical rifle match. At the PR matches, I most often use the bipod and a bag at the rear of the rifle.

The biggest change I notice between the three ways of shooting is group size, not where the group lands on the target.

[Nukes]

Interesting bag:

http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hid...chbag.html

[parallax]

That type would be perfect for the steel plate matches I compete in. It would secure the rifle without restricting the small amount of lateral movement needed to hit the 20' or so spread of all 8 targets at 200 yards.

I want one! I wonder if the Mrs could sew me one up before next Saturday.....

[noone]

An interesting bag has been showing up at practical rifle matches around here. It looks like a pillow attached to the right forearm of a right handed shooter. This is used in addition to the butt stock bags. Often, when shooting from some seated, or kneeling positions, this pillow bag adds just enough material between elbow and support leg to stabilize the shooters position, and stead their hold.