BjornF16 Wrote:No, he was put on trial here IN the USA, so that meets your "in a constitutional republic" litmus test. He wasn't afforded ALL rights and privileges of the Constitution because 1. He wasn't a citizen, and 2. Was apprehended in Mexico where the search of his premises took place.
Not a legalism…just the plain facts.
But I do appreciate the fact you keep quoting me…it's like being stalked…I think that is also a characteristic of NPD. :eek:
The plain facts are the Mexican Verdugo-Urquidez was in Mexico when his Mexican home was illegally searched, his rights violated, and kidnapped to the USA. The gravamen of the legalism hinged on just that.
To quote (stalk?) Brennan (with Marshall), dissenting:
Quote:When our Government conducts a law enforcement search against a foreign national outside of the United States and its territories, it must comply with the Fourth Amendment. Absent exigent circumstances or consent, it must obtain a [494 U.S. 259, 297] search warrant from a United States court. When we tell the world that we expect all people, wherever they may be, to abide by our laws, we cannot in the same breath tell the world that our law enforcement officers need not do the same. Because we cannot expect others to respect our laws until we respect our Constitution, I respectfully dissent.
To paraphrase those dissenters, "In a constitutional republic and outside its borders, even suspected terrorists have the same rights as free men."
Just as regarded the majority opinion in Dred Scott v. Sanford, the majority opinion of US v. Verdugo-Urquidez is "the law," a legalism, not what is right or decent.
Decent people abide by the Golden Rule: "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Decent people respect the rights of people 'round the world.
Evil people, on the other hand, are heedless of what is right and decent and are quite happy to engage in all manner of pilpul, rationalizations, psycho-babble, exceptionalism, legalisms, and brute force to have their way with their slaves and opponents. "Might makes right" is their statist creed. They abide by the perverted 'Golden Rule': "The ones with the gold make the rules."
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06-12-2013, 12:29 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-12-2013, 12:34 PM by montana.)
To paraphrase those dissenters, "In a constitutional republic and outside its borders, even suspected terrorists have the same rights as free men."
Just as regarded the majority opinion in Dred Scott v. Sanford, the majority opinion of US v. Verdugo-Urquidez is "the law," a legalism, not what is right or decent.
Decent people abide by the Golden Rule: "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Decent people respect the rights of people 'round the world.
Evil people, on the other hand, are heedless of what is right and decent and are quite happy to engage in all manner of pilpul, rationalizations, psycho-babble, exceptionalism, legalisms, and brute force to have their way with their slaves and opponents. "Might makes right" is their statist creed. They abide by the perverted 'Golden Rule': "The ones with the gold make the rules."
"Well written nukes, bravo and cheers." 
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montana Wrote:The three other Americans killed were just collateral damage I guess. This practice of killing 50 innocent people for every one person being targeted is going to create more terrorist and perpetuate the problem. This is not only stupid but immoral.
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/05/20/...d-killing/
I don't think you have a full appreciation of my beliefs
I'm not a fan of the over-use of UCAVs for precisely the reason you cite. The majority of strikes that fit that description are carried out by the CIA, not the military. I would much rather put boots on the ground to actually engage the actual combatants and then capitalize on the intelligence that can be captured.
There are some cases that warrant the use of UCAVs, like the remote outposts of Yemen.
Montana, I'd like to know if you believe the following extract from the "news story" you cite:
Quote:Since leaving the controversial US targeted-killing program over two years ago, the young ex-terror drone operator - See more at: http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/05/20/...a0be4.dpuf
BTW: Press TV is a 24-hour English language news network owned by the state-owned media corporation Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB). Its headquarters are located in Tehran, Iran. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_TV
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If the story is true or completely false would only be subjective since I wasn't there. I agree with boots on the ground method but that wasn't my point to discuss military tactics. It was to show the futility of a never ending protracted war, and the dehumanizing of people perpetrated to "gag", "cough", keep me and other American citizens safe. This war on terror is turning out to be like every other necessary just war which creates more simmering hatred and conflict for a future necessary just war . I'm starting to believe these are the intended instead of unintended consequences .WW2 was suppose to be a just war. We took out the evil Nazi's in Europe and the evil imperial Japanese in Asia just to let the Communist take over, thus a new protracted cold war could begin in Korea, Vietnam, and proxy wars on many continents. We could have ended it in 1945, especially since at the time we had the exclusive of nuclear weapons. General Patton and General MacArthur were both in support of this but they didn't fit the game plan so they were cast aside. The war in Serbia, Panama, etc are all criminal in my view. I never use to think this way when I was younger and I made you look like a long hair, smelly, peace, love dope smoking hippie from the 60's. But as I get older I'm begging to see a pattern. Every time we get involved in another just war we as citizens loose more rights and innocent people around the world are murdered and maimed creating the fire for more conflicts. Bjorn16 do you believe if your family was hit by a foreign country's drone strike because they were in the proximity of a suspected terrorist that you would be OK with it? Or would you become a vengeful father. Suspending constitutional rights, having protracted wars that could last decades is definitely not the answer. I would be more trusting of my governments motives if they were consistent when it comes to foreign policy but their not. We take out evil dictators in one country and support one in another. We scream about human rights when directed at this country but justify human rights violations in another country. If you believe this same scenario played out over and over again is being done in the best interest of American citizens instead of a more insidious plan I guess we will have to respectfully disagree.
Should I believe my county's news corporations over Iran's? I distrust both equally.
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montana Wrote:To paraphrase those dissenters, "In a constitutional republic and outside its borders, even suspected terrorists have the same rights as free men."
Just as regarded the majority opinion in Dred Scott v. Sanford, the majority opinion of US v. Verdugo-Urquidez is "the law," a legalism, not what is right or decent.
Decent people abide by the Golden Rule: "Love thy neighbor as thyself." Decent people respect the rights of people 'round the world.
Evil people, on the other hand, are heedless of what is right and decent and are quite happy to engage in all manner of pilpul, rationalizations, psycho-babble, exceptionalism, legalisms, and brute force to have their way with their slaves and opponents. "Might makes right" is their statist creed. They abide by the perverted 'Golden Rule': "The ones with the gold make the rules."
"Well written nukes, bravo and cheers."
Well then, why do you own a gun? Would you use it in self-defense? Will you turn the other cheek? If you don't strictly follow the Golden Rule on a personal level (I'm assuming you would protect yourself), then why do you condemn on a national level?
Or perhaps there are exceptions
"Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
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montana Wrote:If the story is true or completely false would only be subjective since I wasn't there. I agree with boots on the ground method but that wasn't my point to discuss military tactics. It was to show the futility of a never ending protracted war, and the dehumanizing of people perpetrated to "gag", "cough", keep me and other American citizens safe. This war on terror is turning out to be like every other necessary just war which creates more simmering hatred and conflict for a future necessary just war . I'm starting to believe these are the intended instead of unintended consequences .WW2 was suppose to be a just war. We took out the evil Nazi's in Europe and the evil imperial Japanese in Asia just to let the Communist take over, thus a new protracted cold war could begin in Korea, Vietnam, and proxy wars on many continents. We could have ended it in 1945, especially since at the time we had the exclusive of nuclear weapons. General Patton and General MacArthur were both in support of this but they didn't fit the game plan so they were cast aside. The war in Serbia, Panama, etc are all criminal in my view. I never use to think this way when I was younger and I made you look like a long hair, smelly, peace, love dope smoking hippie from the 60's. But as I get older I'm begging to see a pattern. Every time we get involved in another just war we as citizens loose more rights and innocent people around the world are murdered and maimed creating the fire for more conflicts. Bjorn16 do you believe if your family was hit by a foreign country's drone strike because they were in the proximity of a suspected terrorist that you would be OK with it? Or would you become a vengeful father. Suspending constitutional rights, having protracted wars that could last decades is definitely not the answer. I would be more trusting of my governments motives if they were consistent when it comes to foreign policy but their not. We take out evil dictators in one country and support one in another. We scream about human rights when directed at this country but justify human rights violations in another country. If you believe this same scenario played out over and over again is being done in the best interest of American citizens instead of a more insidious plan I guess we will have to respectfully disagree.
Should I believe my county's news corporations over Iran's? I distrust both equally.
I gather you support Carter's foreign policy…it was so effective. Just look how the world views him now...
Let's say a terrorist group was in close proximity of my house, and a strike (whether from my government or another) took out that lot and I lost family members…I would blame the terrorist group and not those eliminating them.
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Really? The difference is if someone tries to harm me or my family I would use what ever means possible to stop them. If the perpetrator got away and I see him in a restaurant with his family I'm not going to toss a hand grenade in to take him out and call all the other casualty's collateral damage. As far as the golden rule if I ever unjustly and purposely harmed another I would expect to be treated in kind.
Trying to get off the problems in the middle or far east; and back on American companies spying on Americans. I note these companies are taking our money to spy on us. Then they sell the information to our government. Then our government increases our taxes-in part to spy on us more. Seems we are feeding a beast that is eating us. I can/am loosen my ties from the data net easier than some here. If you tech savvy guys have ideas I would like to hear. Things I am doing. (1) leaving my phone at home more. (2) parking farther from my destination and leaving my phone in the car (3) MORE CASH transactions. (4) Spending a little time on facebook everyday looking up subjects I have NO interest in. Again ideas are welcome
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BjornF16 Wrote:I gather you support Carter's foreign policy…it was so effective. Just look how the world views him now...
Let's say a terrorist group was in close proximity of my house, and a strike (whether from my government or another) took out that lot and I lost family members…I would blame the terrorist group and not those eliminating them.
No I never liked, voted for or supported Mr. Peanut. I think your mis reading me, my wife has always said I'm not a great communicator, and I wouldn't argue. I think we have a difference in political strategies. Because I try to be kind it does not mean I'm weak. I have stated before if a country or people harm any American we hit them hard and make it hurt. We have decisive plans with a decisive exit strategy. But like in my post above states this is not what is happening. We win battles and loose the war. We have double standards and create scenarios to create more future conflict. I think you would prefer a special opts group to take out the terrorist rather than the whole city block with your family members. Even better how about the host country take out the terrorist for us or deny entry of any of their citizens and foreign aid to their country if they refuse to help. If we can see their terrorist why not notify their military and watch the show. If they need assistance I'm sure we could help.
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montana Wrote:No I never liked, voted for or supported Mr. Peanut. I think your mis reading me, my wife has always said I'm not a great communicator, and I wouldn't argue. I think we have a difference in political strategies. Because I try to be kind it does not mean I'm weak. I have stated before if a country or people harm any American we hit them hard and make it hurt. We have decisive plans with a decisive exit strategy. But like in my post above states this is not what is happening. We win battles and loose the war. We have double standards and create scenarios to create more future conflict. I think you would prefer a special opts group to take out the terrorist rather than the whole city block with your family members. Even better how about the host country take out the terrorist for us or deny entry of any of their citizens and foreign aid to their country if they refuse to help. If we can see their terrorist why not notify their military and watch the show. If they need assistance I'm sure we could help.
I don't mean to infer you supported Carter, but your earlier response indicates you advocate what was essentially his foreign policy. He attempted to apply the Golden Rule to people who didn't give a rats a$$ about the Golden Rule. As a result, his foreign policy was a catastrophe and in hindsight, he didn't make any foreign friends for it. The lone "high point" of his administration were the Camp David Accords (and the success of that is debatable). But I'm really referring to South America
I don't completely disagree with your sentiments on UCAVs, but they have a usefulness in certain situations. They are overused. It is like Clinton trying to lob cruise missiles in various areas, trying to control land via airpower, etc.
However, al Qaeda is not a state actor, and therefore traditional warfare (i.e. break stuff, then execute exit strategy) doesn't work.
Do you believe if we made "nice" to these radicalized islamists that they would make nice to us?
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I'm not saying we should be nice to any bad people. I'm not the type of person "freak" who thinks criminals wouldn't be criminals if they only could understand us. "Just writing that makes me sick." I'm wondering why we have to tip toe around these nations that seem to harbor bad people. Why are we building up communist china, bowing to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt ,Israel, Mexico, etc, etc. Traditional warfare may not work when fighting terrorist but what we are doing is definitely not working. Bjorn16 I know you are a very educated person but like I have stated before when you have been in business as long as I have you recognize B.S. when you see it. I have never acquired a taste for it. People are always trying to sell you something if it's an employee, salesman,client or a competitor. The policy's of this nation is not to benefit it's citizens and like I have said before we will have to agree to disagree on this.
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Montana, I think I have said before that our country has "warts"…I don't agree with the majority of this administration's foreign policy (much less domestic policy).
I would respectfully disagree that the Global War on Terror (as it was called under Bush) has not worked…
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And when a war last over a decade I would respectfully disagree with you. That said maybe we will meet someday at the boomer shoot and have some fun together. Have a good night.
BjornF16 Wrote:Well then, why do you own a gun? Would you use it in self-defense? Will you turn the other cheek? If you don't strictly follow the Golden Rule on a personal level (I'm assuming you would protect yourself), then why do you condemn on a national level?
Or perhaps there are exceptions
"Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
Of course, Catholics are completely free to defend innocent life, even with deadly force if necessary. Well-catechised Catholics (an admittedly vanishing tribe) are also exhorted to expose, oppose, and punish evil. We become accomplices in the evil deeds (sins) of others by:
1) by counsel
2) by command
3) by consent
4) by provocation
5) by praise or flattery
6) by silence
7) by assistance
8) by defense or concealment
9) by not punishing the evil done
Hence it would be sinful if I did not expose, oppose, or support punishment of crimes against humanity.
In waging war, Catholics are morally constrained by just war doctrine:
1) the war must be the last resort against an aggressor
2) the cause must be moral and just and must not result in more or worse evils than before the war
3) the war may be prosecuted only as long as necessary and only with the minimal force necessary to end the conflict
4) the war must be waged without immorality or excess (e.g., rape, looting, overkill, etc.),
5) there must be a reasonable chance of success.
Hence I must oppose the past, current, and putative wars of Zionist conquest.
montana Wrote:Really? The difference is if someone tries to harm me or my family I would use what ever means possible to stop them. If the perpetrator got away and I see him in a restaurant with his family I'm not going to toss a hand grenade in to take him out and call all the other casualty's collateral damage. As far as the golden rule if I ever unjustly and purposely harmed another I would expect to be treated in kind.
Superb analogy!
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montana Wrote:And when a war last over a decade I would respectfully disagree with you. That said maybe we will meet someday at the boomer shoot and have some fun together. Have a good night.
Montana you can't judge this war with a timeline like a traditional war anymore than you can fight it on a traditional war front. The War on Terror will continue as long as there are Qu'rans in circulation or until America collapses. As long as there are large sectors of the human population Hell bent on the destruction of America this war will continue.
This war will continue rather we choose to fight or not.
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin
BjornF16 Wrote:...Do you believe if we made "nice" to these radicalized islamists that they would make nice to us?
You have completely lost sight of cause and effect. You are in complete denial of the facts. Even the manipulations of the world wars to achieve the Zionist goal are completely lost on you:
http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2...#_ednref20
A bunch of Europeans, also abetted by US money and manpower, seized their ancestral lands, terrorized then razed hundreds of cities and villages, raped their women, snipe their children for sport, deny they are even human, harvest their organs, and continue to kill innocent men, women, and children.
If a bunch of people did that to me, I too would be radicalized.
Radical Islam, "antisemitism," and expulsions from hundreds of nations, principalities, and city-states did not occur in a vacuum or upon a whim. There is cause and effect.
"Not to oppose error is to approve it, and not to defend the truth is to suppress it, and indeed to neglect to confound evil men, when we can do it, is no less a sin than to encourage them. " Pope St. Felix III
Back to NSA, 22 Nauseating Quotes From Hypocritical Establishment Politicians About The NSA Spying Scandal:
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/06/22-n...tical.html
*****
Rappoport speculates that the whistle blowing was a move in a CIA v. NSA turf battle:
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/06/did-....html#more
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Cory, I have always supported the defense of my country and especially the people doing it but this is not a war. There is something more insidious going on. I have stated my opinion in the above post's about the unconstitutional murder of American citizens, collateral damage of innocent people, and the excuses given by our government when they destroy our freedoms in the name of a protracted, never ending war on terror. There should never be an excuse to repress, deny or destroy due process or any other constitutional freedom, NEVER! I know there are better methods when dealing with terrorist and nations that harbor them. Nukes in "my opinion" is absolutely right when he talks about cause and effect when talking about government policy. Like I have stated before when one looks at the governments policy from our border security,immigration policy, trade with communist china, and our double standards of morality when dealing with other nations, I smell something fishy in Denmark. Why the hell does the government have to know every little detail of my life and store it through out eternity.BS. This is no longer the home of the brave and land of the free. We have been searching for the booger man and it seems to have turned out to be us.
NSA whistleblower is the title, and I see we're talking about....da joos again.
I'm in Europe right now, and the story is front-page here. People are concerned.
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