Boston Bombing

[ss355]

Well stated, Y85.

Along the lines of what LRRPF52 wrote, here's part of the text of the indictment for McVeigh and Nichols (highlighting mine):

The Grand Jury charges:

1. Beginning on or about September 13, 1994 and
continuing thereafter until on or about April 19, 1995, at
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, in the Western District of
Oklahoma and elsewhere,

TIMOTHY JAMES McVEIGH

and

TERRY LYNN NICHOLS,

the defendants herein, did knowingly, intentionally,
willfully and maliciously conspire, combine and agree
together and with others unknown to the Grand Jury to use
a weapon of mass destruction, namely an explosive bomb
placed in a truck (a "truck bomb"), against persons within
the United States...

[stanc]

The date notwithstanding, the target still doesn't make sense. There's no special political significance to the marathon as far as I know.

Was just watching FauxNews , where they mentioned something to the effect that the marathon was honoring the victims of the Newtown shooting. It's not completely inconceivable that a pro-gun radical might have targeted the race to demonstrate that banning AR15s and large-capacity magazines won't prevent mass murder. If that was indeed the purpose, the target makes perfect sense, especially since the event is televised.

[Variable]

Perhaps Israeli Independance day. The jihadis blame "Big Satan" for "Little Satan's" existence....

http://mycalendar.org/Holiday/Israel/2013/04/

Yom Ha'atzmaut is on the 15th.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Ha%27atzmaut

[Grendel-Gene]

It seems they used a pressure cooker packed with ball bearings.... There are gonna have to ban these high capacity pressure cookers now....

God help us!!

[davidj]

The response of the authorities is kinda like their response at Newton. To this day we have never seen the guns that were used in the massacre.
Now they are getting ready to claim the bombs were made with gunpowder that anyone can purchase in any sporting goods store. Again we will probably never be told the real story.
Look for the call to ban reloading components. If they can't get our guns out of circulation they will make it impossible to load them. They have already been showing some 1lb. canisters of powder on some of the news stations. Never waste a good crisis!!

[bwaites]

Multiple people who I trust in their knowledge of explosives have postulated that it could very likely have been gunpowder. The flash and burn seen in pictures was more consistent with a conflagration than a true high explosives explosion. Gunpowder only explodes under certain pressure situations, and the description of the bombs so far is more consistent with a conflagration vs. an explosion.

[stanc]

I'm no expert, but I do have a little experience playing with both black and smokeless powder. :eek:

I once ignited a few ounces of smokeless powder. It burned very hot and bright, with the flame reaching about 8 feet high, but generated no smoke.

I did the same thing with black powder, which produced a very small flame, but copious amount of billowing white smoke like that seen at Boston.

Interestingly, when I placed a similar quantity of black powder into a cardboard tube ~5 inches in diameter and confined the ends of the tube, the result was a loud explosion with no smoke.

Considering that conflagration would not create nearly enough pressure to cause the amputating wounds at the marathon, IMO it's more likely that there was a genuine explosion of at least a portion of the powder, with perhaps the remainder conflagrating after the container ruptured.

Also, besides the flash and smoke seen in the video, objects near the explosion appear to move as would be expected when hit by blast force. That wouldn't happen with conflagration only.

[bwaites]

I'm no expert, but I do have a little experience playing with both black and smokeless powder. :eek:

I once ignited a few ounces of smokeless powder. It burned very hot and bright, with the flame reaching about 8 feet high, but generated no smoke.

I did the same thing with black powder, which produced a very small flame, but copious amount of billowing white smoke like that seen at Boston.

Interestingly, when I placed a similar quantity of black powder into a cardboard tube ~5 inches in diameter and confined the ends of the tube, the result was a loud explosion with no smoke.

Considering that conflagration would not create nearly enough pressure to cause the amputating wounds at the marathon, IMO it's more likely that there was a genuine explosion of at least a portion of the powder, with perhaps the remainder conflagrating after the container ruptured.

Also, besides the flash and smoke seen in the video, objects near the explosion appear to move as would be expected when hit by blast force. That wouldn't happen with conflagration only.

Watching New York Times video taken from the finish line closely, you can see that it takes about .02 second for the flame front to move about 10 feet, and if my math is right, that is a velocity of about 500 FPS or 340 MPH. That's subsonic and consistent with gunpowder. High explosives generate a supersonic wave front, and detonate at about 3-9 kilometers per second. The windows directly behind the blast are destroyed, but in photos put up by AP you can see that the window above and to the left of the bomb location, only about 15-20 feet away, is damaged by debris in the right lower corner, but not blown out. The doors further left are also intact.







So yes, explosion without competent detonation. Thus conflagration. Other video shows flame in the smoke cloud almost 2 full seconds after the explosion, no way that's supersonic unless there was some kind of secondary fuel mix.

And yes, I'm picking at nits. 3 people were still killed, and almost 200 were injured.

I do find it interesting that the 3 US government workers killed in Benghazi were completely ignored by the MSM, who repeatedly pounded the fact that these were the first terrorist attacks on noncombatant civilians since Obama took office.

And yes, an explosion of this type would cause amputation type injuries to nearby people. This was effectively a big pipe bomb, crude, but effective to some level. Sophisticated in the detonation method, though, apparently.

Lots of pipe bombs have caused amputation type injuries to people nearby!

[LR1955]

Multiple people who I trust in their knowledge of explosives have postulated that it could very likely have been gunpowder. The flash and burn seen in pictures was more consistent with a conflagration than a true high explosives explosion. Gunpowder only explodes under certain pressure situations, and the description of the bombs so far is more consistent with a conflagration vs. an explosion.

Bill:

I realized this when I saw the explosion so I started looking for some Varget. Two each, 8 pound containers will last me for a while these days. Unfortunately, there is none available and no back orders at Powder Valley.

I do believe that before powder gets back into stock for sale again that it will be banned from internet or telephone sales and you will need a background check to buy it at your local rip off retailer.

I was wondering when a local terrorist would buy eight pounds of smokeless and use it in a bomb.

LR1955

[LR1955]

The response of the authorities is kinda like their response at Newton. To this day we have never seen the guns that were used in the massacre.
Now they are getting ready to claim the bombs were made with gunpowder that anyone can purchase in any sporting goods store. Again we will probably never be told the real story.
Look for the call to ban reloading components. If they can't get our guns out of circulation they will make it impossible to load them. They have already been showing some 1lb. canisters of powder on some of the news stations. Never waste a good crisis!!

Dave:

So, you do not believe the nut job at Newton killed those kids with a firearm?

Or, you don't believe he was the only guy who pulled the trigger?

LR1955

[Grendel-Gene]

I think that since the Libs can't quite seem to get to our guns, that they may try to use this to ban gun powder instead to almost the same effect.... but without the constitutional hurdles!

[davidj]

LR,
I didn't say that. Although I grant that major confusion always accompanies initial news reports in situations such as these I find it hard to believe that ALL the reports were erroneous. There were too many people who said they had found only two handguns inside the school and an AR on the seat in the car. The early reports were all sanitized and a whole new picture was drawn.
Many years ago I learned firsthand that Uncle Sam has the uncanny ability to turn dog poop into gold when it has the desire to change the rules.
That hasn't changed...in fact it has become much more sophisticated in the information age.

[LR1955]

LR,
I didn't say that. Although I grant that major confusion always accompanies initial news reports in situations such as these I find it hard to believe that ALL the reports were erroneous. There were too many people who said they had found only two handguns inside the school and an AR on the seat in the car. The early reports were all sanitized and a whole new picture was drawn.
Many years ago I learned firsthand that Uncle Sam has the uncanny ability to turn dog poop into gold when it has the desire to change the rules.
That hasn't changed...in fact it has become much more sophisticated in the information age.

DJ:

So, do you think that no AR was used? Or that no handgun was used? Or that both were used?

Given the number of people who witnessed the incident, and the number of people involved in the investigation, it would be impossible for the US Government to alter evidence or coerce the witnesses to the extent that every one of them, to include every single LEA who was there, would say the same story to this day. One of those people would have blown the whistle on any cover up or tampering with evidence.

The information age has made it harder for a government in a fee society to bullshit its population.

LR1955

[davidj]

All I say is "Show me the guns!"

[Nukes]

This recitation of events, especially those in Portland, must be a complete lie:
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/04/bost....html#more

Our government would never do such things in our free society. Besides, even before the information age, they never lied to us about the USS Maine, Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin.... I trust them completely in all they do. They always have our best interests at heart. We should believe and do all they tell us.

[LR1955]

All I say is "Show me the guns!"

DJ:

So, you don't believe those kids were killed by the perp using guns. Despite all of the witnesses.

Then, what killed those people?

LR1955

[davidj]

LR:
I thought I had made it clear. You keep asking what I do and don't believe. Let us try again.
I believe the "perp" killed all those children and adults by shooting them.
I believe he acted alone.
I do not necessarily believe that he used an AR to accomplish this.
I do believe that the Justice Dept, et.al. are totally capable of pulling the wool over one's eyes. They do this daily with the aid of a media that does not believe Americans are capable of thinking for themselves.
I believe that the current administration saw this tragedy as a great opportunity to crush the 2nd Amendment and took whatever steps they could to cynically manipulate popular opinion into trying to force Congress so start the process.
I do believe they underestimated the resolve of the American People.

[LR1955]

LR:
I thought I had made it clear. You keep asking what I do and don't believe. Let us try again.
I believe the "perp" killed all those children and adults by shooting them.
I believe he acted alone.
I do not necessarily believe that he used an AR to accomplish this.
I do believe that the Justice Dept, et.al. are totally capable of pulling the wool over one's eyes. They do this daily with the aid of a media that does not believe Americans are capable of thinking for themselves.
I believe that the current administration saw this tragedy as a great opportunity to crush the 2nd Amendment and took whatever steps they could to cynically manipulate popular opinion into trying to force Congress so start the process.
I do believe they underestimated the resolve of the American People.

Dave:

Thanks -- you finally made it clear.

One guy using guns killed those people.

No argument from me on that. The other stuff? Maybe. You give the Government way too much credit for being able to pull off something without screwing it up.

LR55

[LR1955]

This recitation of events, especially those in Portland, must be a complete lie:
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/04/bost....html#more

Our government would never do such things in our free society. Besides, even before the information age, they never lied to us about the USS Maine, Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin.... I trust them completely in all they do. They always have our best interests at heart. We should believe and do all they tell us.

Nukes:

I read the article. I have no clue what this guys point was. I think he had problems choosing which voice he wanted to believe.

Maybe you can state his theme in one, clearly written sentence?

LR1955

[LRRPF52]

Regarding Newtown, I have some lingering questions about the individuals who were arrested in the woods and around the school. The silence of the lack of any journalistic follow-up to those arrests is deafening, I'm afraid, and I didn't imagine the helicopter video footage of the arrests outside the school. There were also eye-witness accounts from teachers of seeing two figures running through the halls.

I also think it stinks that the details of the crime have been sealed by a judge, when the alleged perpetrator is dead already. What logical reason is there to keep this information from the public, while anti-gun elements including the White House, members of the Senate, House, and anti-freedom organizations make a full court press to ramrod legislation through in an emotionally-charged public sentiment environment, when we still don't know the facts of the case.

Sorry, but I have major problems with the manner in which this whole public fear/emotion campaign has been conducted. Since the WH is in charge of Eric Holder and his criminal accomplices in the DOJ, it doesn't really matter what the components used in the bombing are, as they have most likely already brought in either the FBI or the ATF bomb squad, and the report findings will be crafted in a manner to lump in the NRA in the propaganda template to equate the right to keep & bear arms with killing children and innocent by-standers at marathons and other public events.

As Rahm Emanuel said, "Never let a crisis go to waste." I think my points are legitimate and valid logical arguments based on the track record of these people. I mean, Eric Holder led an armed assault on the ROTC headquarters building in the 1970's as part of the Black Panthers radical useful idiot movement, and Obama launched his political career from Bill Ayer's house-a murderous terrorist Weathermen Underground leader who was involved in bombing the US Capitol Building, Pentagon, several police headquarters buildings, and was responsible for the death of his girlfriend when a bomb that was intended for an NCO Club dance at Fort Dix, New Jersey, detonated in the Greenwich Village Townhouse explosion. He even planted a bomb at a police memorial dedicated to police casualties.

So this is the current "leadership" culture we have in the White House, and I don't put anything past them. Their track record speaks for itself, and is so deplorable, it's almost unbelievable that we're in the state of affairs we're in.