Direction Army is Taking with Designated Marksmen/Sniper Rifles

[LRRPF52]

So it appears that there will basically be two primary precision rifles for the battlefield:

One a derivative of the SASS, but with a shorter barrel and telescoping stock called the M110C, which is basically an evolved SR25 carbine:





[SIZE="4"]How far we have come...
[/SIZE]


With the other being the dedicated bolt gun for shooting out to 1500m, namely the M2010 in .300 WinMag.

[stanc]

So it appears that there will basically be two primary precision rifles for the battlefield:

One a derivative of the SASS, but with a shorter barrel and telescoping stock called the M110C, which is basically an evolved SR25 carbine:

Cool. Pattern for a Grendel DMR?

[Michael]

Huh..LRRPF52 - do you know why they went with .300 WinMag over .338 Lapua? Not super familiar with the ballistics of either, but I thought there were some units employing the .338 with great success.

[LRRPF52]

MARSOC has purchased the M110C conversion kits, which includes a 16" barreled upper with a new URX, Magpul ACS stock, and a short suppressor. Australia is getting an HK417 variant for their Marksmanship Rifle System. Brits have been using the LMT 7.62 NATO, while New Zealand is also adopting it. 7.62 NATO carbines based on the Stoner system are becoming the standard.

MV difference between the 20" guns and 16" averages 80fps, so not worth the barrel length. With 175gr, they are supersonic plenty far. Receiving sniper-specific ammo is a problem, even for units in SOCOM when deployed.

[LRRPF52]

Huh..LRRPF52 - do you know why they went with .300 WinMag over .338 Lapua? Not super familiar with the ballistics of either, but I thought there were some units employing the .338 with great success.

A lot of people have been scratching their heads over that decision. All our coalition partners have adopted .338 LM as the go-to cartridge for distance. I'm guessing the combination of a few things:

* Remington and the PSR contract derail was able to re-barrel the M24 actions, since they're long already, and go with the .300 WM
* .300 WM was already in the system, in use with primarily Naval Special Warfare and Army SF

You would think that they would have gone with what coalition & NATO partners are using, but other factors led to the decision in favor of .300 WM. Training is the most important aspect at the end of the day.

[bwaites]

SF can still get .338 systems from what I've read, and they would be the most likely to deploy and use them. Doubtful that .338 Lapua would be deployed to the joes on the line.

Also, maybe they are waiting for Bill Alexander's new .338 SemiAuto!

[Nukes]

SF can still get .338 systems from what I've read, and they would be the most likely to deploy and use them. Doubtful that .338 Lapua would be deployed to the joes on the line.

Also, maybe they are waiting for Bill Alexander's new .338 SemiAuto!

Hmmmm.... waiting...

[LRRPF52]

While there are .338 LM Systems that have been undergoing demonstration and competition with each other for the PSR contract, (which appears dead in the water right now), they are no issue systems for the units within SOCOM.

Even the NSW guys use .300 WM, and have done so for decades, going back to no later than 1986, if not earlier.

[Guardsman26]

If 6.5 Grendel was used across the squad - everyone would have a DMR rifle as well as a carbine and LMG.

I am pretty sure that .338 Lapua will edge out .300 Winchester Magnum across all US forces in time. The .338 appears to have really proved its worth in Afghanistan. Without any NATO competition, it has established itself as a new de facto NATO sniping calibre. Which shows, when you get it right, perceived barriers to adoption fall away. The same is true for 4.6 mm as a PDW calibre and H&K's MP7. Both has seen much wider adoption than FN has managed with its own calibre 5.7 and its PDW.

I think there is a real need for a semi-automatic .338 rifle. if Bill gets AA's model right, he could easily sell it across NATO. It just has to way less than H&K's G28 which is a monster. Using a reinforced AR10 platform, it might even be possible to make a .338 weapon capable of firing short automatic bursts. A .338 light machine gun would be a welcome piece of additional firepower.

[kegs]

.338 has a significant ballistic advantage to .300 WM. However, .338 LM is $$ per shot.

[JASmith]

Why would we call the .338 LM a light machine gun?

What are the side-by-side ballistics at 2,000 metres?

[Trooper]

Why would we call the .338 LM a light machine gun?

What are the side-by-side ballistics at 2,000 metres?

Compared to the M2 .50 cal, the .338 is light.

[stanc]

Why would we call the .338 LM a light machine gun?

:confused: Nobody called it a light machine gun.

[Michael]

There are, as I have been taught, three levels of Machine Guns - Light, Medium and Heavy. Light is in the 5.56 range, medium is in the 7.62 range, and Heavy is .50 and higher. This may vary slightly by country/doctrine.

[JASmith]

There are, as I have been taught, three levels of Machine Guns - Light, Medium and Heavy. Light is in the 5.56 range, medium is in the 7.62 range, and Heavy is .50 and higher. This may vary slightly by country/doctrine.

Michael,

Thanks for the clarification. The last sentence of Guardsman's post (#10 in this thread) reminded me of speculative discussions about the potential for the .338 LMG to replace the .50 BMG.

That could open another path for long-term easing of redundant logistics burdens.

[Guardsman26]

A .338 Light Machine Gun is probably a contradiction in terms, but such a weapon would be a lot lighter than an M2 HMG. Maybe the weight could be kept below 11 kg. Give an HE round and you could take out vehicles with ease and probably helicopters too. A ten round burst of .338 HE or WP would really make your eyes water!

[JASmith]

I can also say that the .50 BMG (actually 12.7 mm in the North Vietnamese Army) really gets your attention even when they miss. Those tracers were bright even at a couple of miles!

I knew three folks who survived hits by the weapon too. All were extremities, two required 6" of femur replacement but the third will never see his big toe again!

[LRRPF52]

If 6.5 Grendel was used across the squad - everyone would have a DMR rifle as well as a carbine and LMG.

I am pretty sure that .338 Lapua will edge out .300 Winchester Magnum across all US forces in time. The .338 appears to have really proved its worth in Afghanistan. Without any NATO competition, it has established itself as a new de facto NATO sniping calibre. Which shows, when you get it right, perceived barriers to adoption fall away. The same is true for 4.6 mm as a PDW calibre and H&K's MP7. Both has seen much wider adoption than FN has managed with its own calibre 5.7 and its PDW.

I think there is a real need for a semi-automatic .338 rifle. if Bill gets AA's model right, he could easily sell it across NATO. It just has to way less than H&K's G28 which is a monster. Using a reinforced AR10 platform, it might even be possible to make a .338 weapon capable of firing short automatic bursts. A .338 light machine gun would be a welcome piece of additional firepower.

Grendels at the Squad Level would make a lot of sense, especially in the 16" Carbine format for Afghanistan, and an LMG with constant-recoil in a half-bullpup configuration, like a micro-M60E4 with a reliable operating system a la MAG58.

Augmented with .338 Medium-Heavy machine guns and long-range sniper rifles, with 6x35 PDW's for soft skills, and you have a simple ammunition mix that is lighter across the logistics weight/volume displacement, with better performance characteristics than 5.56/7.62/.50 BMG.

The main distinguishing weapon characteristics between the DM carbines and assault rifles would be select barrels, triggers, and optics peculiar to the DMC, where 2 MOA or better accuracy is required, a crisp/reliable trigger like the Geissele is dropped-in, and a good compact variable power optic is used that goes up to 8x or 10x.

Depending on the theater of operations and force posture, squad-level infantrymen could use a mix of 6x35 PDW carbines with 6.5 Grendel 16" Carbines.

[Drifter]

... precision rifles for the battlefield:

One a derivative of the SASS, but with a shorter barrel and telescoping stock called the M110C, which is basically an evolved SR25 carbine:

I'm not on LaRue's newsletter list, but FWIW, this is what's being shared by others who received an e-mail today:

"NEWS RELEASE:
03/08/2013 LEANDER, TX.

LaRue’s Thoughts on the M110 Compact Semi-Automatic Sniper System (CSASS).

It’s no secret that LaRue Tactical is one of the contenders for the US Army’s Compact Semi-Automatic Sniper System (CSASS). The CSASS solicitation is exploring the options for reconfiguring the existing M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System (SASS) currently available in Army inventory, or completely replacing the M110 with a new system.

At the recent SHOT Show, aisle-talk centered on impending and drastic military cuts. Rumors were flying, from aircraft carriers missing important scheduled maintenance, to drastically-reduced training flights, to warships stacking up in Pacific harbors ...

Given the tsunami of cutbacks our military organizations are crashing head-on into, we feel the substantial costs required for LaRue Tactical to pursue the upcoming CSASS / M110-Upgrade would simply be a waste of resources.

While we believe that America's Warfighters should always have the best, and that we are large enough to handle the project, our consensus is that the program will not gain full traction. We feel our money is better spent invested in people, processes, manufacturing infrastructure, and continued improvements to our product lines.

Henceforth, we are officially opting-out of the CSASS / M110-Upgrade solicitation.

However, let it be known that our doors are always open for OTS/OTC purchases ... like recent customers: FBI-HRT, DEA, U.S. Marshals, DoE, Texas Rangers, just to name a few ...

v/r,

Mark LaRue - President
LaRue Tactical
www.larue.com"

[KentuckyBuddha]

Grendels at the Squad Level would make a lot of sense, especially in the 16" Carbine format for Afghanistan, and an LMG with constant-recoil in a half-bullpup configuration, like a micro-M60E4 with a reliable operating system a la MAG58.

Augmented with .338 Medium-Heavy machine guns and long-range sniper rifles, with 6x35 PDW's for soft skills, and you have a simple ammunition mix that is lighter across the logistics weight/volume displacement, with better performance characteristics than 5.56/7.62/.50 BMG.

The main distinguishing weapon characteristics between the DM carbines and assault rifles would be select barrels, triggers, and optics peculiar to the DMC, where 2 MOA or better accuracy is required, a crisp/reliable trigger like the Geissele is dropped-in, and a good compact variable power optic is used that goes up to 8x or 10x.

Depending on the theater of operations and force posture, squad-level infantrymen could use a mix of 6x35 PDW carbines with 6.5 Grendel 16" Carbines.

This is almost verbatim the rant I repeat all the time! I like 5.7x28 though...but to be fair I have zero experience with the 6x35. Tankers, Drivers, Officers, etc etc deserve a hand rifle like the Five seveN or a bullpup like a P-90. The Army just won't have anything but a double action pistol...luckily the Five seveN was originally double action. : )

But hey...you can't get class 5 for troops to shoot anyhow. Imagine if Coach Pitino or Calipari told the good people of Kentucky he was going to have the kids qualify with the basketball at the free throw line twice a year if they needed it or not...and they would be playing basketball with their (and their teammates and countless others) lives on the line and the game could be had at a moments notice 24/7. They would put them away for their own protection!! That is just nuts! We are just not likely to make a change for financial reasons no matter how much it is needed sadly.

In the engagement paradigm we are likely to face from now on, FOB goblins need to practice just like 11 bang bangs. This has got to sink in, and hopefully soon.