Military round comparisons

[JASmith]

The upcoming Wolf steel case ammo sure looks it was designed for the infantry.

[txgunner00]

My problem with General Purpose Cartridges is that they aren't well-suited for important engagement scenarios, and soldier's load considerations, particularly when you understand the relationship between soldier's load and combat endurance.

If there is one candidate for a GPC, the Grendel is the cartridge to beat, but you would still need 2 or 3 different loads for it ideally:

An assault rifle load with a lighter projectile of 100gr or less, with high velocity

A Light Machine Gun Load pushing a high BC FMJBT of 130gr at 2600fps or more

A DM/Sniper load of a 123gr BTHP pushed at 2600fps

That kinda makes the assault rifle load questionable in comparison to the 5.56, since 5.56 is an awesome little cartridge that I can carry a ton of, resulting in the extended fighting duration of my unit.

7.62 NATO should be the cartridge that is phased out, and replaced with a 6.5mm LMG and DM/SASS cartridge.

I agree with the different loadings. The beauty of them all being the same caliber is you can use any of them in any platform in a pinch.

[Nukes]

I saw, not long ago, the results of an analysis done of various rifle calibres. I can't provide more details of the circumstances, other than to say it was in a military context. The study (a paper exercise using various ballistic and other performance software available to the military) compared the performance of the 6.5 Grendel (123 grain OTM), 6.8 Rem (115 grain OTM), 7.62mm M80, 5.56mm M855 and 5.56mm MK262. It wasn't intended to be a particularly exhaustive analysis, but I thought you might like the outcome:

In external ballistics, the rounds fell into three groups: the M855 and 6.8mm Rem were very similar; the M80 and MK262 were also very similar, and much better than the first pair; the Grendel was by itself, waaaay out in front on every metric (including calculated barrier penetration). The work included the effects of wind drift as shown on some typical "advancing man" targets at 300m. I didn't note the wind speed, but a shot aimed centre-mass would have hit very close to centre mass with the Grendel, and just clipped the edge of the target with M855.

None of this will come as any surprise to anyone on this forum, of course, but it was nice to see this coming from a military source.

I did point out that replicating these performances with copper+steel bullets as currently favoured by the US Army would be difficult (probably impossible with MK262), due to the considerable extra length required.

Is this the paper you seek?
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=...tTRDoc.pdf

[Nukes]

...Again, when someone finally makes a Grendel LMG,....

Wouldn't you just love an Ameli in 6.5 Grendel? I would.

[Nukes]

... and 911 perpetrators.

The Israeli "moving company" and "art students" are adopting the 6.5 Grendel???

[hellcat370]

LRRPF52 suggested three loadings- assault rifle, machinegun, and dm/sniper rifle. Another thread I read recently talked about 2 loadings, assault and machinegun, with the first being around 100gr. and the second 140gr. Obviously the sniper and assault loadings would have to have the same COAL due to being loaded in magazines, but what about the machinegun? Could (or should?) you load the heavier 140gr loads longer so as to allow more powder and thus have more velocity and power in a belt fed machinegun which does not have to worry about mag length? Or should they all fit in a magazine? I can see the advantages and disadvantages of both, but thought I would run it by everyone. In either case, you would have a single cartridge system.

[rickOshay]

Is this the paper you seek?
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=...tTRDoc.pdf

Page 8 and 9 of this document are very interesting indeed.

[cory]

hellcat I believe it would be ideal for all rounds to fit into a magazine. That being said if a clear advantage can be obtained from a longer COAL in belt fed ammo, I believe that would be the way to go.

[Nukes]

Has anyone seen an Ameli for sale? I have not seen one or seen one for sale since the mid-80's. I think it would be a great platform for the 6.5G LMG being proposed.

[Variable]

Has anyone seen an Ameli for sale? I have not seen one or seen one for sale since the mid-80's. I think it would be a great platform for the 6.5G LMG being proposed.

No, I haven't seen any for sale. I think they'd be post samples anyway though. I don't think they are made anymore.

I also think it would likely make a great Grendel platform, and have brought it up multiple times in the past here and on the old board.

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-conte...ndbook.pdf

Another great possible candidate (IMHO) would be the Ares Shrike, but it would have to belong to someone other than Ares to ever happen.... I have one in 5.56, and it's an awesome concept, but being produced by Ares severely hampers it.

[txgunner00]

Excuse me while I wipe the drool off my keyboard....

[stanc]

LRRPF52 suggested three loadings- assault rifle, machinegun, and dm/sniper rifle. Another thread I read recently talked about 2 loadings, assault and machinegun, with the first being around 100gr. and the second 140gr. Obviously the sniper and assault loadings would have to have the same COAL due to being loaded in magazines, but what about the machinegun? Could (or should?) you load the heavier 140gr loads longer so as to allow more powder and thus have more velocity and power in a belt fed machinegun which does not have to worry about mag length? Or should they all fit in a magazine?

It depends upon whether you wish to discuss what could be done in theory, or what the military is likely to opt for in practice. Historically, a single loading has been used for mag-fed rifles and belt-fed machine guns. IMO, that is unlikely to change, so proposing different loads for the two types of weapons is destined to fail.

[coastguardchas]

It depends upon whether you wish to discuss what could be done in theory, or what the military is likely to opt for in practice. Historically, a single loading has been used for mag-fed rifles and belt-fed machine guns. IMO, that is unlikely to change, so proposing different loads for the two types of weapons is destined to fail.

Stanc: how many different loads for 5.56 do we have now?

[Tony Williams]

For the last couple of decades of its existence, the British .303 came in two ball loadings: the Mk VII for mag-fed weapons, and the Mk VIII (a higher pressure loading with different propellant and a boat-tailed bullet) for the belt-fed Vickers.

[stanc]

Stanc: how many different loads for 5.56 do we have now?

I dunno, but that isn't important. There have always been a variety of loadings in whatever was the standard caliber at the time, from at least 1903 to the present.

The relevant question is, what has been the SOP for the last 110 years?

The answer: One standard ball round, used for both mag-fed rifles and belt-fed machine guns.

[stanc]

For the last couple of decades of its existence, the British .303 came in two ball loadings: the Mk VII for mag-fed weapons, and the Mk VIII (a higher pressure loading with different propellant and a boat-tailed bullet) for the belt-fed Vickers.

I was addressing what has been SOP for the US (and NATO).

[Guardsman26]

First post here. Hello everyone. Ex-UK Army infantry platoon leader point-of-view:

It really doesn't make sense to have different loadings for any GPC cartridge. As soon as you do that, you might as well stick with 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm in rifles and machine guns respectively. Anyone familiar with logistical constraints of resupply in the field know the headache this would provide.

The 6.5 mm Grendel is undoubtedly the best intermediate calibre cartridge available today. Having seen comparisons of its long-range performance versus improved 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm rounds, I am convinced that it has merit. Where the Grendel comes unstuck is through the requirement to fit within the action length of 5.56 mm weapons.

The bullet, which has an ideal form factor, is very long - but you really wouldn't want to change that. What we really need is increased powder capacity to give it a little extra energy and thus retained energy at long range - especially when fired from short-barrel weapons - and better short-range terminal effectiveness, including barrier defeat. In other words, what the Grendel really needs is a slightly larger case - something in between the current 11.3 x 39 mm and the 6.5 mm x 47 Lapua brass.

Freed from this obvious constraint, the Grendel would be a natural choice for any Army. It would necessitate a 5.56 mm AR-15 weapon with a slightly longer receiver. Or an a 7.62 mm AR-10 model with a lightened receiver. Either way, the weight increase over existing 5.56 mm weapons could i believe be kept to 500 grams or 1.1 lb.

The other reason to put more power behind the bullet is because for it to be adopted as a military round, then you'd probably need a lead free projectile. Assuming a steel core in a copper shoe, a la M855A1 EPA, this is likely to reduce bullet mass to 100-110 grains. So you would need more energy to ensure the same ballistic effect.

[bwaites]

Don't tell the bullets, or my AR15, but I shoot all the way out to 130 grain bullets just fine out of my AR15 rifles, without having to go over mag length.

[KentuckyBuddha]

Don't tell the bullets, or my AR15, but I shoot all the way out to 130 grain bullets just fine out of my AR15 rifles, without having to go over mag length.

Wow! What twist rate to you have on that barrel?

[JASmith]

First post here. Hello everyone. Ex-UK Army infantry platoon leader point-of-view:
...The 6.5 mm Grendel is undoubtedly the best intermediate calibre cartridge available today. Having seen comparisons of its long-range performance versus improved 5.56 mm and 7.62 mm rounds, I am convinced that it has merit. Where the Grendel comes unstuck is through the requirement to fit within the action length of 5.56 mm weapons...

Welcome aboard Guardsman!!!

Looking forward to your highly informative comments here in addition to where I've seen them before.

I concur with your comment about the limitations of the AR15/5.56mm cartridge length and the Grendel likely having the best potential for hunting (and infantry) within that constraint.

Looking forward to seeing how the discussion about the alternative cartridge overall length plays out.

Cheers!
Joe