This is really the only shooting forum I participate in right now, and I appreciate the opinions of the people here, so I'll ask the question.
I'm sure you guys aren't aware, but I am a newly licensed manufacturer. I have for a while now been working on angled scope bases for Savage and Remington Rifles. The first batch of which is currently in production.
In addition to that, I am exploring the idea of an economical, limited production, better than factory, long range target rifle. For that, I would love input regarding component and configuration choices. It would also help to get a feel for whether there is even a market for such a thing. Even a complete scope/rifle packages came to mind, pre-zeroed, and ready to shoot, out of the box.
So here are my thoughts on that. I don't necessarily want the most inexpensive components, but functional components. I want to balance both perceived value with real value. That is, I don't want the impression of a cheap rifle due to inexpensive components, despite how it might actually perform. I'm looking for a parts/assembly list that will provide the best bang for the buck.
As for actual components, I'm thinking.
Savage Varmint center feed action, PTG bolthead, ptg recoil lug, .308 Green Mountain Barrel (12 twist, 27" blank, heavy profile), Black medalist stock, My own canted base (20 or 30 moa), Palma95 chamber.
As for finish, I'm thinking raw stainless or Melonite. Melonite though, I'm still on the fence on. If I did that, I would want to polish the throat prior, and I am concerned about turnaround time and cost. Otherwise perhaps a duracoat. I am still on the fence about blueprinting too. I don't know if it's worth while pursuing considering the price to performance ratio and targeted price point.
The price point is subject to costs of course, but I would want it to as affordable and functional as possible.
So, any input? Good idea, Bad idea? Thoughts on component selection? Scopes? Anything?
I don't know if asking this is out of line or not, but I would like to know what you guys think.
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From what I have read on this subject and the shooters who indulge in this area of shooting sports, there are as many recipe's for component match-up as there are shooters. While Savages off the shelf long range rifle has exceptance almost all seem to choose some modification and accesory variation so I think it would end up being as small a market as would an outfit offering a one size fits all specialised bench rest rifle. Just my initial take on the idea even if I might want it to be a success for your sake.
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The savage action is a great set up for a production rifle their floating bolt head and barrel nut attachment set up allows for a very precise setup at a lower manufacturing cost that said the floating bolt head while it improves upon an not tried production fixed head can't get a hole lot better than it is and the barrel nut is kind of ugly, the the savage accutriger system is probably the best factory trigger out there hence it has been copied by other manufactures that said savage actions have a slow lock time as the bolt release is part of the trigger mechanism and it adds a lot of moving mass to the trigger compared to Remington style triggers
Now don't get me wrong savage makes a great gun I own a few and love them they are fantastic sporting arms that said if I was gong to build or buy a custom rifle I would use a Remington style action my next bolt gun will most likely be a custom built gun with stiller precision tac action I looked into building rifles for a profit a while back but decide against it I dint have the tooling and couldn't justify it based on the margins
That said here's my advice if you have good machines build your own action or if not fin a good custom action based on the Remington and there trigger set up there is a reason virtually all custom set ups use it as far as the barrel green mountian make great barrels but don't advertise that they are green mountian barrels just say custom and give barrel specs people will google green mountian and see their price list while they are great barrels they are also very reasonably priced and people tend to associate cost with quality as for the stock the medalist is a great stock and I wouldn't hesitate to use one intact I probably will on my next build hard to beat the aluminum chassis that said its custom you should offer fitting to other stocks as well like McMillan again people associate cost with better quality
Basically if your going to be a custom builder you should give a few options and seem equal to or better than the competition a lot also depend on what price point you going after
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Rambozo Wrote:...I don't want the impression of a cheap rifle due to inexpensive components, despite how it might actually perform.
...Green Mountain Barrel ...
I'm not really a bolt-action guy, but you lost my interest when the barrel brand was mentioned.
mongoosesnipe Wrote:...as far as the barrel green mountian make great barrels but don't advertise that they are green mountian barrels just say custom and give barrel specs people will google green mountian and see their price list while they are great barrels they are also very reasonably priced and people tend to associate cost with quality...
Perhaps a reasonable point, but it might depend upon the target market. If potential buyers know their barrel brands reasonably well, they will want to know the source of the barrel blank. If the target audience isn't expected to be so well informed, you might could claim that you have a nondisclosure agreement with the barrel maker if / when asked by a customer.
Try to see the product offering through the eyes of your target audience, and let that steer your decisions and direction.
Drifter
Drifter Wrote:I'm not really a bolt-action guy, but you lost my interest when the barrel brand was mentioned.
You know, I didn't have high hopes for the Green Mountain I have. We just got it because it was the first barrel we ever worked on, and we didn't want to feel bad if we messed up. As it turned out though, it shoots much better than anticipated. I'm sold on Green Mountain barrels now.
The idea behind this rifle, is to provide something better than factory, while trying to be low priced. So I expect the closest competition to this rifle would be the Savage F class guns. I think you would be hard pressed to build a rifle that's not better than a factory gun. The questions are, not whether it will shoot well, but can I keep the costs down, and is there a market for it? And perceived value is a big consideration too. I don't want to give any impression that it's junk, simply because I'm trying to use lower cost components. And I don't want a configuration that would put it into a smaller market. I want to squeeze a lot out of a little by focusing on the details that matter.
I thought of custom actions like a Stiller, but that's too much for what I want to do.
I'm thinking something like an entry level F-TR gun.
I haven't even sourced the parts and worked up cost estimates yet. So I don't even know if it's feasable at any modest sum anyway.
Do note that the target from the Green Mountain was from a match, and so there was a change in POA. Still, the barrel shoots well.
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Rambozo Wrote:You know, I didn't have high hopes for the Green Mountain I have. We just got it because it was the first barrel we ever worked on, and we didn't want to feel bad if we messed up. As it turned out though, it shoots much better than anticipated. I'm sold on Green Mountain barrels now.
I didn't mean to imply that GM barrels wouldn't shoot. I have zero experience with 'em. But the brand makes me think of inexpensive Ruger 10/22 replacement barrels. I wouldn't knowingly purchase a GM barrel. My perception may be flawed, but if other people have the same perception, then it could be a case where perception is reality and you miss sales opportunities because of it.
Not everyone can justify the expense of a BMW, so they look for a less expensive automobile that is perceived to be nearly as good at a fraction of the cost. Brands like Toyota, Nissan, etc come to mind. If you're trying to sell people a custom car with a Yugo engine, thinking you can convince them that it's better than the other "value" brands because you assembled it, you will have an uphill battle even if it really is better than the others.
So either skip using the Yugo engine at the heart of your build, or withhold that info from the stat sheet if you do.
Drifter
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green mountian makes inexpensive 10/22 barrels but they are on par with most anything else out there for the 10/22 if you go to one of the rimfire forums they are far and away the most popular and the couple i have played with shoot under 1moa with proper ammo that said improving on factory accuracy is not such an easy feat as you may think my savage 12 bvss 308 shoots sub moa consistently with any decent load and the best group i have ever shot with it was a 3/8 inch ctc 5 shot group at 100 yards with hornady 168 hpbt moly match ammo before i bought before i started hand loading now i am not saying the stars were not shining on me when i shot that group but lack of accuracy has never been a complaint for me with that gun that said getting back to green mountian they are not advertised as match barrels but for 50 bucks its probably the best barrel out there... http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/barrelblank...rrel-blank
No, I know exactly what you're talking about. It's what I was refering to as "perceived value". And no, I wouldn't feel the need to advertise my components any more than I would expect Savage to divulge what barrels they build their rifles with.
Aside from that though, I don't at all consider Green Mountain barrels to be bad. Honestly, my Bartlein has yet to proove that it's much better. Granted, I havent shot the Bartlein much, but early indications don't suggest that it's 3 times the barrel. No matter what barrel to use, it's sure to be better than Savage. My factory 10FP barrel makes a better boat anchor. lol
Really though, it all depends on if there is a market for such a thing. Even if I could work up a deal with local shops, could I actually sell them? Would I be restricted to the sporatic online sale? And then it's for a rifle that has no established reputation what so ever.
mongoosesnipe Wrote:...but for 50 bucks its probably the best barrel out there...http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/barrelblank...rrel-blank Oh, we have one of those blanks. We have yet to do anything with it. It isn't at all the blank we had in mind. http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/barrelblanksround/27-round-button-rifled-barel-blanks/308-112-stainless-barrel-blank-27x120 That's more along the lines of what I had in mind.
The blank we used on my rifle was a 4140 Chomemoly 10 twist. It doesn't look like they offer it anymore.
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I think if you could sell the in your local shops it may be worth it as for online the market is saturated with people who make custom rifles many of them are made to order if you we're selling them local i would sell the with a box of custom ammo used to test fire for accuracy I think the idea of a 20 rd box with 3 spent cases and 17 loaded rounds along with the test target old b a pretty neat sales pitch and could open you up for custom ammo sales
Given the saturation of the US market with rifles of the type you are proposing, why not think outside the box a little?
Step 1. Lay your hands on a reliable supply of the Zastava m85 action.
Step 2. Do a deal with a barrel manufacturer.
Step 3. Setup a CNC Mill to square the action.
Step 4. Come to an arrangement with Basner for dealer prices on his Mini Mauser stock.
Step 5. Build semi-custom rifles on the micro action in limited configurations.
Action + squared + good barrel + reamer + Basner stock = 6.5lb bolt gun that will shoot 1/2in with decent factory ammo. Cost to you will be about $800, cost to the customer could be just over the magic $1k mark for a full house custom rifle for them to play with, let the kids/grandkids shoot with and have as a handy little truck gun.
I'd offer them in 6.5 Grendel, 7.62x39mm, 223, 6/223 and 17 Hornady Hornet. With barrels a #3 profile cut to 21inches, a good stock and a set of bases you will develop a small but steady market for your rifles.
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01-15-2013, 11:13 AM
(This post was last modified: 01-15-2013, 11:15 AM by Drifter.)
adamjp Wrote:Step 5. Build semi-custom rifles on the micro action in limited configurations.
I like that idea. Offerings could include the popular AR cartridges, such as 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 300 Blackout (or whatever it's called these days), etc. Many of the shooters for these cartridges are handloaders, so no new components to buy. There's already somewhat of an appeal for pint-sized lightweight bolt rifles chambered for AR cartridges, which might be further enhanced by the potential of new gun laws coming. But there are few existing options outside of buying a complete rifle chambered for 223 or 7.62x39, then waiting months to get a custom barrel fitted for it. Even I, a confessed non-bolt rifle guy, would be interested in a reasonably-priced accurate Grendel micro-action rifle. It's a niche market that's not being catered to at this time.
Drifter
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I agree with Adam's suguestion as there is a real hole in the market for this size and configuration of rifle and for exactly the reason stated. There is a growing trend toward the small eficient cartridge and I might add the 20 VarTarg and or the 20 Practical to the line as well and the range of light walking rifles would be covered.
These are good points. I had forgotten about supressors so the 300 AAC / Blackout would also be a great addition, as would the SPC. Offering barrels in a 16in configuration (still #3 profile) would also be good.
I did think about the little 20s, but demand for them does not appear to be high. My thoughts were to stay with things you could move quickly.
So we are proposing a micro rifle: - Mini Mauser (Zastava m85) action (squared & lapped)
- Basner Stock (pillar bedded and painted)
- #3 profile barrel
- 21in and 16in barrel lengths
- Chambered in 17 HH, 223, 6/223, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 300 Blackout, 7.62x39mm
Think hard about something like the 20 Prac (or whatever the 20/223 cartridge is called).
Boyds also do a thumbhole for these rifles, but the one I have is fussy with how you hold it. They now list a standard field stock too, for only $74 plus postage it might be a better standard stock than the Basner?
To my mind there is NOTHING like this on the US market and you will have the niche to yourself. The Cooper rifles are lovely, but only single shot and quite expensive. Sako 85s are only offered in boring chamberings, and the CZ527 will not be offered in most of these chamberings at all (and it has ugly bottom metal).
If you really wanted you could offer upgrades to better triggers (any m98 trigger will fit), choices of mounting system, a selection of appropriate scopes, supressors, and Cerakoting of the barreled actions in a basic black.
If the Australian market was large enough, I would already be doing this here.
Smack Water Jack
Unregistered
Adam, you've got to get past the " ugly bottom metal " mate, everything else is great
SWJ
Smack Water Jack Wrote:Adam, you've got to get past the " ugly bottom metal " mate, everything else is great
SWJ I continue to disagree.
When I'm carrying a properly balanced rifle with one hand it sits in just forward of the trigger guard as the balance point is 2 to 2.5 inches forward of the trigger. If the action has a magazine system like a normal rifle (m85, Rem 700, Model 70, Ruger 77) it sits flat and easy. If it has a protruding magazaine box like the CZ it does not sit flat and is quite annoying.
The other design failure of the CZ is the bolt handle making your scope so high you cannot get a cheekweld. Lets not forget the extra weight and the higher cost. Retail for a CZ is twice that for a Zastava, and whilst I do think the CZ is technically a better action, the ergonomics are well behind.
Particularly relevant to this discussion is that if you don't want one of the chamberings they do ex-factory, you cannot buy just the action. You must buy a whole rifle and then junk it.
The aftermarket stock support is not there either, Boyds do one, HS do one for a varmiter, thats it. There are four manufacturers that I know of that do stocks for the Zastava, in at least 6 different styles and in glass, laminate or walnut.
For the purposes of this discussion, the Zastava m85 (with it's flaws) is a better starting point.
Smack Water Jack
Unregistered
Not entirely correct Adam, not available in Australia, but you can buy them in the US. I bought a new hornet action, $420.00 USD, $40.00 for a James Calhoon bolt handle. $70.00 I think for his hunker mounts. They are worth every penny, you cannot get lower mount for the CZ and they perfectly. There are few rifles you dont have to spend a penny on to make them feel right. There would'nt be a worse bolt ift than a ruger. A lot of people like box magazines.
A good starting point in that we can't get CZs at a reasonable price. Having now had the opportunity to get the feel of a zastava, I can only chalk and cheese
SWJ
Well, I think we are going to re-evaluate this idea. One thing is, it doesn't look as if there are many options for affordable actions. In the mean time, I'm getting back at the CAD drawings. It looks like our own action might just be what we have to do.
This new micro action rifle idea, I think I'm going to think about that a little more too. I looked around for those Zastava actions, but couldn't find much.
Rambozo Wrote:Well, I think we are going to re-evaluate this idea. One thing is, it doesn't look as if there are many options for affordable actions. In the mean time, I'm getting back at the CAD drawings. It looks like our own action might just be what we have to do.
This new micro action rifle idea, I think I'm going to think about that a little more too. I looked around for those Zastava actions, but couldn't find much.
If you can do a micro action with a similar look and feel to a Rem700/Model 7, scaling down the action walls, the bolt and the length like NULA do for their actions, but retaining whatever parts can be the same (trigger, ejector, bolt stop, mounts, etc.) IMHO you would be on a winner.
Smack Water Jack Wrote:...A good starting point in that we can't get CZs at a reasonable price. Having now had the opportunity to get the feel of a zastava, I can only chalk and cheese
Once the Zastava has worn in (they are very rough ex-factory) there is SFA between them in feel - except for the things I outlined. Squaring the action will remove most of the roughness you get from a fresh mauser.
Like it or not, the Zastava has better aftermarket support.
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