hill.brandonj
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i am obviously doing something wrong here....
this is 200 yards no wind with factory hornady which in my gun can do four shots inside a quarter...these shots today were from a bipod but i think the lateral thing is weird
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are your scope rings mounted securely to the rail?
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When firing, which way is the scope "jumping"? (straight up, up and left, or up and right). Are you "pre-loading" the bipod?
What is the bipod sitting on?
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hill.brandonj
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Yeah the rings are tight. At 100 I can do little groups. The bipod was sitting on the concrete bench top. No not preloading really Not sure on scope jump Just thought it very odd I could get the elevation right four times exact but the left to right messed up while aiming tv exactly same poibt
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After comments from other more experienced shooters on this forum (and confirmed by my own learning curve), shooting a bipod off of concrete may result in some exaggerated jumping. I've taken to the practice of shooting from a carpet put down on the concrete bench which allows for some "pre-loading" of the bipod...or shoot from a rest instead of the bipod.
The lateral jumping "could" be from how you are holding the rifle, including the bipod stance...but I'll let others comment. I'm still learning. When I'm "in the groove", I see the rifle scope jump up slightly, not left or right. My rifle, being relatively lightweight, likes firm pressure to the shoulder (unlike my R700 bull barreled .308, which is a heavy gun).
There are other more experienced shooters that could give better guidance (stokes, LR1955, LRPF52, bwaites, and more). I'd be interested to hear their take...
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hill.brandonj
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Thanks! It's so lateral it's uncanny. I guess it could be coincidence but that's factory amax and it shoots great same set up at hundred. Hopefully we will hear from them
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BjornF16 Wrote:After comments from other more experienced shooters on this forum (and confirmed by my own learning curve), shooting a bipod off of concrete may result in some exaggerated jumping. I've taken to the practice of shooting from a carpet put down on the concrete bench which allows for some "pre-loading" of the bipod...or shoot from a rest instead of the bipod.
The lateral jumping "could" be from how you are holding the rifle, including the bipod stance...but I'll let others comment. I'm still learning. When I'm "in the groove", I see the rifle scope jump up slightly, not left or right. My rifle, being relatively lightweight, likes firm pressure to the shoulder (unlike my R700 bull barreled .308, which is a heavy gun).
There are other more experienced shooters that could give better guidance (stokes, LR1955, LRPF52, bwaites, and more). I'd be interested to hear their take...
BF15:
My take?
No one can deduce if this single group represents a mean or not.
Without three or four groups shot with good calls, who knows?
LR1955
hill.brandonj
Unregistered
Is there any chance begat a gun/barrel can shoot sub moa easy every time at hundred and do this at two ?
It is absolute folly to assume that a load that shoots sub MOA at 100 yards will also do so at 200, 300, or longer distances. The only way to know for sure is to shoot them at longer distances.
However, your group doesn't mean much. I would draw no conclusions from a single group, I would repeat it four or five times, before I accepted any information as valid.
The most likely culprit is your position, pay close attention to natural point of aim and the recoil direction. If you don't have the rifle set up so that it is pointed at the exact center with no muscles used then it would be normal to get this large of a group with a rifle capable of .25 MOA. If your recoil is anything other than straight up, your natural point of aim is off.
Bob
hill.brandonj
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Sooo if I understand that. I need it to point at my target by more or less having the butt rested against shoulder or on a bag it the idea is with minimal effort ? That is factory hornady stuff. I would assume the ammo is capable. As should be that rifle that mr a helped me out with. So I'll get more ammo and try some more. Von the ammo/ reload page I have some good groups I got today. I would just have assumed the same basic pattern at two hundred jut more opened up. Ago an I'm very beginner barons here its just "good nuff to kill a deer " and go home
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hill.brandonj Wrote:Is there any chance begat a gun/barrel can shoot sub moa easy every time at hundred and do this at two ?
BH:
Guys deceive themselves by shooting at 100 yards. 100 yards is not a good distance to use if you want to see the true potential of your rifle, ammo, sighting system, and the shooter. 200 or 300 are much better distances.
My bet is that in statistical terms you weren't shooting 'sub minute' at 100 yards. You really need to shoot at least 25 rounds per load at 100 yards and have a very specific set of standards for measuring things.
If your barrel is an economy model. don't expect it to perform at longer distances.
LR1955
hill.brandonj
Unregistered
No idea what the barrel is. Mr a helped me with that. As for the 25 shots for a group. How long between shots. And should I just try at two hundred then? I'm not looking for competition stuff. Would love to be able to "showboat" atv400-600 maybe one day. But really have a 250-300 yard shot on a whitetail be a possibility. What I still need to find out is if a 123g bullet will give me a humane shit for that distance
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Shoot a bunch. Read and learn and think. Shoot a bunch more. Read some more. Shoot. Learn. Shoot. Learn. Improve. It'll come together like anything else in life.
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John
:: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets
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Based on my research I believe the Grendel is capable of taking deer sized game at those distances, but I think the critical portion of that equation is shot placement, in other words the Grendel with its modest velocity/energy as compared to accepted deer cartridges does not give you as much room for error on a marginal hit. Again based on research and not practice (yet) one could assume you could probably extend that distance some if:
You and your gun/ammo can shoot moa or better at those distances. You may want to read up on the point blank range theory, while there are some that will shoot it down, it does give you a basic idea of what is needed to take an animal at extended ranges.
In a nutshell, based on the theory you can establish a range your setup will be able to make lethal hit without having to adjust your scope or hold over.
There are many posts on here of guys taking deer and even elk sized game at ranges longer than what you are talking about. I think this boils down to the capability of the gun/optic/load and of coarse the shooter. While I won't compare shooting to other prof sports, some people are just born with more talent or ability, and others who have made these types of shots have spent years honing their craft.
In summary long distance does not just happen, it takes practice, and knowing the limits of you and your rig. The last thing you want is to be surprised after taking a long shot (good or bad)
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hill.brandonj Wrote:No idea what the barrel is. Mr a helped me with that. As for the 25 shots for a group. How long between shots. And should I just try at two hundred then? I'm not looking for competition stuff. Would love to be able to "showboat" atv400-600 maybe one day. But really have a 250-300 yard shot on a whitetail be a possibility. What I still need to find out is if a 123g bullet will give me a humane shit for that distance
Brandon:
What is a 'humane shit'?
Hunting purposes means the terminal effects outweigh pure accuracy most of the time. A two minute shooter is probably sufficient for a 300 yard shot but once the bullet gets there, it has to do its job and that will depend on velocity. So, get a chronograph and see if your velocities are high enough that once the bullet gets to 250, it is still going fast enough for performance.
When I am trying to find a accuracy load, I will load up ten rounds of a couple of promising loads and shoot them. I can normally tell if a load is promising at five shots and will use the other five to confirm or deny. I will take the two or three most promising loads and load up 25 rounds each and go back to the range where I will shoot five shot groups of each load over a chronograph and for accuracy at the same time. Given five groups of five, I get a better picture of the load and have some leeway concerning what I measure. Much of this deals with comparing where bullets went compared to my calls.
The law of diminishing returns plays a big role. If a load has a mean of about 3/4 minute given 20 or 25 shots taken and measured, it meets my standards and normally I won't mess with it anymore. I would rather use the ammo for practical purposes than load testing.
LR1955
hill.brandonj
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Haha sorry for the typo I need to find someone with a chrono. Will load up some more and see what happens. By hablas guys !! Always appreciated
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hill.brandonj Wrote:Haha sorry for the typo I need to find someone with a chrono. Will load up some more and see what happens. By hablas guys !! Always appreciated
BH:
Here is another way you can look at groups in terms of capabilities. The one group you had in question showed a couple of things. First, your extreme vertical was about one inch or about 1/2 minute. When we test loads at 300 and beyond, we tend to look at vertical dispersion more than lateral as there may be winds we can't pick up. Your lateral dispersion was about 3 1/2 inches or about 1 3/4 minute. The lateral dispersion you show would not be acceptable at 200 but at 300 it would be given we had winds we couldn't keep on top of for the string. That gives you an idea as to how we look at performance changes as conditions change.
Anyway, another way you can measure things is to add your extreme horizontal dispersion and your extreme vertical dispersion together and divide by two. In this case you have 3.5" + 1" = 4.5". 4.5" / 2 = 2.25" And, 2.25 inches @ 200 yards is about 1 1/4 minutes. This technique doesn't tell you if your load is stringing -- only a average size. However, it does give you a practical value that you can use for decisions. It also shows you that perhaps the load isn't that bad after all.
LR1955
hill.brandonj
Unregistered
Yeah when you break it down that way sounds better. I jut thought it was odd the way it laid out. Thanks. I appreciate all yours guys' info
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