Not grendel looking for some advice

[Zeneffect]

Have a varmint match in November that is limited to .224 projectile size. It will be unknown distances, varmint sized targets, no warmup or sighters.

I have the time and money to build a rifle before then just to run this match but I am undecided about cartridge. There are some rules about upper speed limit not exceeding 3200fps.

We looking at valkyrie at this point? Just stick with .223? 22-250 is probably a touch fast and wrong twist rate for the weight I want to run (75-80gr)

Thinking fast and flat is going to be the key

[VASCAR2]

The is the velocity range of the 22 Grendel. Basically 6.5 Grendel necked down to .224. A Friend is a big advocate of this cartridge but he is using his for varmints plus target shooting. Same bolt and mags as 6.5 Grendel. A 20”-22” barrel in 22 Grendel get around 3200 FPS depending on projectile.


Using google custom search here are a couple of threads.


https://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthre...-load-data


https://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthre...el-hog-gun

[Klem]

Zene,

77-80gn match bullets in a 1:8 twist is perfect for 22-250. I competed a few weeks ago using .223 with 77 TMK's in 1:8 Krieger medium Palma profile, 23" barrel, 1:8-twist on varmint targets out to 300M. 22-250 is overbore for sure, but in a bolt gun with decent barrel will be even faster, and the best combo on the line to start the match.

[Konocti's Wigwam]

The new 22 Creedmoor shouldn't be overlooked, IMO. I didn't know they had a 22 Grendel as Vascars points out, that looks interesting. 22 Creedmoor is likely to take most of the .22 sector, IMO.

[Zeneffect]

I'm looking hard ar 22arc right now

[biodsl]

I'm looking hard ar 22arc right now

This is probably the round the Valkryie was supposed to be. Hornady does such a good job with all their cartridge introductions. Has there been one flop in the last 15 years?

Totally unsubstantiated opinion: Hornady was an early provider of 6.5 Grendel ammunition. Personally, I think the cartridge had a huge influence on Hornady. They took Bill Alexander's concepts and applied them to the .260. The 6.5 Creedmoor was the result. They did it again with the PRC family and now the ARCs.

[LR1955]

This is probably the round the Valkryie was supposed to be. Hornady does such a good job with all their cartridge introductions. Has there been one flop in the last 15 years?

Totally unsubstantiated opinion: Hornady was an early provider of 6.5 Grendel ammunition. Personally, I think the cartridge had a huge influence on Hornady. They took Bill Alexander's concepts and applied them to the .260. The 6.5 Creedmoor was the result. They did it again with the PRC family and now the ARCs.

Nothing new about converting a cartridge by making its shoulder sharper and blowing it out. Ackley is the originator I think.

I believe the 6.5 Creedmoor evolved from the .260 and not from the Grendel.

LR-55

[JASmith]

Nothing new about converting a cartridge by making its shoulder sharper and blowing it out. Ackley is the originator I think.

I believe the 6.5 Creedmoor evolved from the .260 and not from the Grendel.

LR-55

True -- but one thing Bill did was to pay attention to large volume manufacturability. That influenced some choices ih the Grendel format and we see those carried forward into the newer Hornady designs.

[LR1955]

True -- but one thing Bill did was to pay attention to large volume manufacturability. That influenced some choices ih the Grendel format and we see those carried forward into the newer Hornady designs.

Perked my interest.

What choices in the Grendel format did Alexander and Brennan (?) come up with that Hornady used and in what designs? What Hornady cartridges are directly attributed to the Grendel?

I do not see anything magical about the Grendel design. I do see getting it to work in an AR-15 as being pretty innovative though.

LR-55

[biodsl]

Again, total speculation on my part. I'm simply saying that progress rests on the shoulders of those who came before. Perhaps Hornady's inspiration was not the Grendel. Perhaps it was the Winchester Short Magnum series. Probably it was both. The early 2000s brought the "shoulder sharper and blowing it out" of cartridge design to the forefront. I'm simply saying that Hornady's affiliation with AA and their work manufacturing brass (pretty sure the ammo came later) ammo for the Grendel likely influenced Emary and Thielin, the guys who developed the Creedmoor.

[LRRPF52]

This is probably the round the Valkryie was supposed to be. Hornady does such a good job with all their cartridge introductions. Has there been one flop in the last 15 years?

Totally unsubstantiated opinion: Hornady was an early provider of 6.5 Grendel ammunition. Personally, I think the cartridge had a huge influence on Hornady. They took Bill Alexander's concepts and applied them to the .260. The 6.5 Creedmoor was the result. They did it again with the PRC family and now the ARCs.

Hornady had made an improved 300 Savage called the 30 TC, working in conjunction with Thompson Center. 30 TC provided .30-06 speeds from a .308-sized case, due to more efficient burning of the propellant mass resonated against a 30 degree shoulder. Since it was marginally-better than .308, it never caught-on due to how dominant and available .308 was in the market.



When Hornady saw Remington hesitate/drop the ball with the .260 Remington, which was gaining a lot of steam in the growing precision rifle competition circuit in the 2000s, Hornady simply necked down the 30 TC to 6.5mm, and thus was born the 6.5 Creedmoor. 6.5 Grendel had already been around since 2003 and 6.5x47 Lapua had been introduced in 2005.

Success is often built on multiple attempts and failures, and Hornady was at the right time and place with all the development they had done with 30 TC to capitalize on it finally with 6.5 Creedmoor, then marketed it exceptionally well to where it is now a staple cartridge on store shelves taking up wide swaths of the space across multiple manufacturers.

[LRRPF52]

Some of the flops that Hornady had and later turned some of them into golden children:


338 Ruger Compact Magnum, which was introduced in 2008-never went much of anywhere, later necked-down to 6.5mm and voila.....6.5 PRC, a huge success

The RCM was Hornady’s answer to the WSM and RSAUM cartridges. They looked at George Gardner’s success with 6.5 SAUM GAP4S and necked down RCM to 6.5mm for the PRC.

Hornady also worked with Ruger to develop some magnum revolver and big bore hunting rifle cartridges, in addition to their work on the .17 HMR, .17 HM2, and the .204 Ruger.

6mm HAGAR (30 Remington case necked-down to 6mm, never caught on)

The HAGAR is the one that most don’t even know about, although Hi Power folks that were around remember it. 6mm HAGAR was brought to Hornady from John Harrison and Sid Goodling (HArrison Goodling Automatic Rifle), so not really Hornady’s baby at all.

[lazyengineer]

Have a varmint match in November that is limited to .224 projectile size. It will be unknown distances, varmint sized targets, no warmup or sighters.

I have the time and money to build a rifle before then just to run this match but I am undecided about cartridge. There are some rules about upper speed limit not exceeding 3200fps.

We looking at valkyrie at this point? Just stick with .223? 22-250 is probably a touch fast and wrong twist rate for the weight I want to run (75-80gr)

Thinking fast and flat is going to be the key

This is just me, but with all those restrictions, and being a one-event purpose item; I'd just take a 20" NM Service Rifle AR with 600 yard competition 80 gr ammo and single load that. I know plenty of people who run that out to 1000 yards. Or I'd run 77gr MK262 ammo, if semi-auto had value. I guess I just don't get excited by the longer range .22 options; and want a bigger heavier caliber bullet if I'm going farther than 600 yards and don't think a .223 has enough to do it. But I'm also biased because I already have that gear and load and am pretty heavily practiced with it.

Sounds like you have budget and gumption to make something more purpose built. That being the case, .22-250 bolt action or AR10 HBAR; in 1/9 or maybe 1/10; running 80gr bullets. Which typically top out around that speed limit.

[LRRPF52]

What type of action is allowed?

[Zeneffect]

Any

[Lemonaid]

.223 AI might be worth a look. That artificial intelligence could make a big difference.

[StoneHendge]

A .22 Eargesplitten Loudenboomer could probably get 95 gr SMKs going 3200 with a mild load.

[LR1955]

Again, total speculation on my part. I'm simply saying that progress rests on the shoulders of those who came before. Perhaps Hornady's inspiration was not the Grendel. Perhaps it was the Winchester Short Magnum series. Probably it was both. The early 2000s brought the "shoulder sharper and blowing it out" of cartridge design to the forefront. I'm simply saying that Hornady's affiliation with AA and their work manufacturing brass (pretty sure the ammo came later) ammo for the Grendel likely influenced Emary and Thielin, the guys who developed the Creedmoor.

Again though, I thought Ackley was the guy who started the sharper shoulder and blown out brass designs.

What affiliation did Hornady have with AA other than seeing an opportunity to turn a profit because enough Grendel ammo and brass was being sold to make its production economical and profitable?

LR-55

[grayfox]

Far as I'm concerned, whoever was first is mostly academic to me.
"Who's on first? what's on second? third base - I don't know!"
Remington made several mis-steps in cartridge-land, the 6.8 spc, 6mm Remington, even the 260 wasn't the optimum it should have been. hornady on the other hand, has been in there trying (and succeeding most times) at new cartridge innovation/production. I'll give them credit for that.

Am I a fan of the big H? not particularly, but I'm a user. Sierra makes darn good bullets but they are sporadic in availability. It's going on 1 1/2-2 yrs since their new 6mm/100 tgk and 90 tgk have been available; and they have introduced a 120 gr "tgk" for grendel, but it's almost too long, and BC less than the eldm/sst... mimics pretty close to the Nosler for BC, so yeah I got some but not holding my breath at this point - unsure whether Sierra will have them available much of the time.

To Hornady's credit they pretty much have stuff, bullets and brass, and factory ammo, available all the time, seems like. Not necessarily top-notch but pretty good overall. And in the consumer world, available trumps "best-ness".

[Konocti's Wigwam]

Far as I'm concerned, whoever was first is mostly academic to me.

I agree 100%.

Am I a fan of the big H?

I am for some things and not for others. As an example, I don't find their brass to be very good. But I do find them to manufacture great bullets. Pretty hard to deny that, IMO. I used to like the ELD-M and ELD-X, but now can't be used for game. Just sold a bunch of lead bullets at 50% off.

Sierra makes darn good bullets but they are sporadic in availability. It's going on 1 1/2-2 yrs since their new 6mm/100 tgk and 90 tgk have been available; and they have introduced a 120 gr "tgk" for grendel, but it's almost too long, and BC less than the eldm/sst...

During all this time Hornady was doing dopler work on their latest lead free offerings. Although more expensive, I think most of us know that lead is not good for us. Seems that we should be using copper for hunting.

I like Sierra, and have used my fair share of both SMKs and TMKs, and the fact that they're coming out with tipped copper bullets shows us the writing on the wall.

In California it's not even legal to shoot varmints with lead. You can shoot humans with lead, there's no restrictions in that regard, but we're not allowed to even shoot a rat with lead.:confused:

KW