Late 2023 Elk Bullet Updates?

[Rodedawgg]

Hi Gang,

Just checking in to see if the Hornady Black 123gr ELD-M (factory load per Stinky Coyote) and loads using the 129gr ABLR are still the favorite elk bullets...and what the current favored load behind the 129 is. Is there a lead-free option that y'all are getting good results with?

As a secondary question (due to Kentucky caliber restrictions of .270 on elk), are there any loads in 6.8 SPC that are giving good results?

Thanks!

[Stinky Coyote]

gross, you can't use a 6.5 on elk in Kentucky? that's messed up...how many moose have died across the pond to the swede?

personally prefer the high sd, squishy bullets and moderate velocity formula on game for more drt's and shorter recoveries if not drt's

if forced to go mono then step up a full class in velocity imo...if I were forced to go mono I'd likely move up to the 6.5 cm as they have pathetic sd/bc compared to heavy lead core stuff so you have to drive it faster (burn more powder, eat more barrel, eat more recoil) to get similar performance at distance and still you don't get quite as spectacular internal disruption as the eld-m formula at moderate velocities

best of luck to ya, grab a 30-06 and some hornady cx loads and away you go, I'd go ruger Hawkeye hunter with a trijicon 3-9x40 accupoint green dot duplex and that would be that, I shoot factory ammo

reloading will offer you more flexibility, go higher pressures for bolt action and drive the lighter coppers faster but I'd still knock at least 100 yards off your useful range as compared to the eld-m/sst 123's if you go copper and driven hotter than factory pressures

the only 6.8 spc load I liked was 110gr v-max and that's deer only, pathetic sd, falls on it's face pretty quick with sad bc also and launches slower than a 123 grendel to boot...the two cartridges are not in the same league imo, the grendel is one full level above the spc, it has true sd for elk/moose size game and why it's an overachieve and the spc has never been able to make the claims or show the success or popularity on game that the grendel has and the spc has had longer to try and prove itself...it can't and it's all in the numbers why

the 6.5 grendel is niche end cartridge and max efficiency to make it work is with the 123's...the guys who designed knew exactly what they were doing, so if you have to stray away from the 123's you may as well jump up to a standard short action cartridge like a .308 or 7-08 for your weird caliber restrictions...no one needs an excuse to buy a new gun, look at that ruger, I have, pretty fine rifle and top choice today imo, I'd go 6.5 man bun here but for you the 308 or 30-06 or 7rm are available, tikka's good also, you could get a regular .270 win and I've had one, tack driver to 700 yards with fusion 130's, and kills elk good

[SDguy]

If I was to consider Grendel for Elk, an Absolute Hammer offering would get serious consideration.

[Fess]

As far as the 6.8 SPC, several elk have been taken, most commonly with with Accubond 100 and 110's and with Cavity Back monolithic bullets. Still, it limits you to near-perfect shots at relatively short range. Interestingly, both 105gr Cavity Back and the heavier 120 grain version have worked well.
I think that most people would recommend something more powerful unless you intentionally want to limit yourself to the above-mentioned short-range and perfect shots.

For a big animal, I would prefer a bullet designed for deep penetration, like the AccuBonds. I suspect that the 105 and 118gr 6.5 Cavity Back bullets would work well in the Grendel.
They are advertised to expand down to 1500 fps.
The Grendel and ELD-M is an interesting case. Hornady itself does not recommend it for hunting, but, unlike some match bullets, it seems to mushroom like a hunting bullet, at least from photos I have seen. This probably has something to do with the Grendel's moderate velocity and the polymer tip not terribly different from the SST. The ELD-M does not have a tapered jacket like most hunting bullets, but at Grendel speeds, it seems to work OK.
Hornady had a YouTube video a few months back about bullet performance and why they typically don't recommend target bullets for hunting, FWIW.

[Stinky Coyote]

As far as the 6.8 SPC, several elk have been taken, most commonly with with Accubond 100 and 110's and with Cavity Back monolithic bullets. Still, it limits you to near-perfect shots at relatively short range. Interestingly, both 105gr Cavity Back and the heavier 120 grain version have worked well.
I think that most people would recommend something more powerful unless you intentionally want to limit yourself to the above-mentioned short-range and perfect shots.

For a big animal, I would prefer a bullet designed for deep penetration, like the AccuBonds. I suspect that the 105 and 118gr 6.5 Cavity Back bullets would work well in the Grendel.
They are advertised to expand down to 1500 fps.
The Grendel and ELD-M is an interesting case. Hornady itself does not recommend it for hunting, but, unlike some match bullets, it seems to mushroom like a hunting bullet, at least from photos I have seen. This probably has something to do with the Grendel's moderate velocity and the polymer tip not terribly different from the SST. The ELD-M does not have a tapered jacket like most hunting bullets, but at Grendel speeds, it seems to work OK.
Hornady had a YouTube video a few months back about bullet performance and why they typically don't recommend target bullets for hunting, FWIW.

you bet, I collect as much data as I can on my own and there's a great example from this forum where a guy recovered an eldm offside of a nice whitetail buck with a 1700 fps impact, textbook mushroom and looks to be around 95% weight retention, I have recovered 81% of an eld-m from a steep quartering away buck at 2100 fps impact and it went 18" taking last rib on way in and going through brisket and hanging up in the last bit of meat in front of it on the way out, and I've recovered some jackets from my faster grenades on big buck and bear with 2250-2350 fps impacts under offside hide and judging by how much further jacket peeled back I'd have to guess retention in the 50-60% range for the really close shots, there was a guy who tested eldm/sst in gel and the eldm went 1" further, they are both going to perform similar on game and I think most who've tried both would agree

I also shot a whitetail at 420 yards quartering and it exited after 15" of penetration and I know that bullet was likely closer to the textbook mushroom in the 90% weight retention range based on my 2100 fps 81% and buddy's 1700 fps ~95% retention example here, and nothing I've shot yet, including a bull moose at 125 yards, has shown me that I would get anything outside of 18-22" penetration from muzzle to as far as I can hit things, not sure why use a mono, obviously large bone will be different but as things slow down the bullet weight stays higher therefore sd higher therefore penetration depth goes up...the point of mono's is to keep all the sad sd they have to start with and drive them really hard to compensate and make them open up and do decent internal work also. But the slow squishy bullet formula is way more efficient...which is what the grendel with sst/eldm 123's is. It's 3/4 scale 308 168 Bt's essentially, same depths, same internal damage, just a few less grains of bullet but 50% less recoil.

I would prefer my eldm in all situations including elk/moose with the grendel. It has all the right numbers and performance characteristics. The copper equivalent to me requires the step up to 6 CM to compensate. Or use reloading on the grendel to push the pressures in a bolt action and compensate with extra velocity that way. Factory ammo though...6.5 CM, or in this guys case 7-08 or 308 if factory, the spc isn't an option regardless of reloading imo...it's maybe a 200 yard at best with ideal ideal placement regardless what you load into it.

[kmon]

I would take my 129gr accubond loads without thinking about it, if not that pull out the 125gr partitions and work up a load for it. I have no real doubt about either. If I lived where the elk did and had a long season I would elk hunt with the Grendel without hesitation. The elk hunts I have done though were for 6 days out of state and carried a bigger gun just to tip the odds a bit more. Really glad I had the 300 Wby on one hunt, successful Texas Heart shot on my largest elk with it.

[Rodedawgg]

Thanks for the responses.

Stinky Coyote...

Yeah, I'm not sure why Kentucky has the .270 minimum. Virginia next door has a .24 minimum and not near as many elk. I agree with you about the Swede, but 30-06 hits me back too hard. Crap, the 180gr stuff I was shooting out of my .308 (about 20ft/lbs recoil in my TC) today at the range beat the snot of janky shoulders (read chronic issues). I'm trying to rehab back up to that kind of recoil, but...I'm not sure I'm ever gonna get to that point again. We'll see though, I'm only a year into recoil rehab...lol

As far as my interest in mono bullets... I'm pretty sure that monos are going to be increasingly mandated to replace lead. I'd rather get familiar with them now rather than when forced to. And 200 yards is probably going to be my permanent max range with anything....one day it will be, when I find a place to practice that far.

I'm planning to take a reloading class this fall. There's a lot of things I'll jump into on my own....this isn't one of them. The drive to learn reloading has been pushed forward by my lack of finding much in the way of Grendels, 6ARCs, and 6.8s on the shelf. Hopefully by this time next year, I'll have my reloading game up to par, and not have to worry so much about it.

The 123 ELD-M passed through on a quartering shot at over 400 and still did the work inside without penciling? Definitely further than I can shoot, so that's good lol. It sounds like a ridiculously versatile loading for the recoil; deer, elk, moose... I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess the 123 ELD-M factory load is still your favorite

SDGuy...

Yeah, I like what I've been learning about the Hammer bullets. I saw the one guy from them on Spomer's podcast, and I really like their take bullets. Are they the ones with slo-mo footage of shooting the tomato and the bullet fully deploying by the time it exits? I'm just learning about Cutting Edge ad Cavity Back, but they look promising as well.

Fess...

Can you define "relatively short?" Your relatively short may (for real) be my current max range or farther. I'm mainly asking about 6.8SPC on the off-chance I can get in on the KY elk hunting...and a 270Win is not a low-recoil alternative to my 308 lol. That and I've heard on hogs they give the Grendel a serious run for its money.

Kmon...

How fast can you push the 129s in a gas gun? No Texas heart-shots for me...I can't shoulder a Texas pop-gun rated for it lol. With my shoulders, I'm stuck with approaching rifle hunting like archery with really long ranges for arrows but short range for rifle with very light recoiling cartridges lol.

Thanks!

[Stinky Coyote]

hornady custom lite has a 120 gr at 2675 fps from 7-08 or 125 gr at 2600 from 308 would mimic grendel recoils...if factory ammo is what you're limited to, so mild to wild off the shelf, plus lighter coppers don't hit as hard in full loads either and there's lots of options now off the shelf, if you reload then take your pick of any short action larger than 270 and load to suit, the penetration will be deeper with the 7-08 for same bullet weights due to higher sd, 308 may be the most versatile factory round over 270 in the world so would look hard at that, resale etc., I'm with you on the 30-06, always hated the pounding from them, and every 30 cal fyi, my 7-08 was snappy as well and reminded me of a 270, so I think it's bullet weight push that affects me most so seem to prefer 140 gr of less pills regardless of velocity, I don't think the new ruger comes in 7-08 but it does 308, I've considered that also for that universal appeal

30-30 with 170's would be a decent option to 200 also

[imaguy3]

30-30 with 170's would be a decent option to 200 also

Very decent option... even the 150's. I have a 1-8 scope on my old Marlin 336. I'm 2.5" high at 100 and 2" low at 200.

[Fess]

Most limit shots on elk to about 200 yards with the 6.8 SPC, but of course there is always that one guy who post pics of a 350+ yard one ( at altitude, with a 20" barrel and loaded to above SAAMI pressures). That is the exception rather than the rule, however. Google searches including "elk" and the cartridge name will get more specific info. Although this site and the 68Forum were once bitter rivals, I have followed both for years and the rounds are pretty much comparable for hunting to at least 300 yards. Once you get much beyond that range, you need to worry about the opening speed of the bullet, windage, drop, etc. With certain combinations, you can to around 400 yards for deer with both cartridges, but, in my opinion, that us pushing it. Of course ridiculous shots have been made with both cartridges and the Grendel seems to gain a little more from barrels over 18".
The Grendel really shows an advantage if you like to plink or ring steel at 500 yards and beyond. Realistically, more ammo is used at the range than on a hunt.

Regarding pass-throughs at long range: That is not always a good thing. That sometimes means that there was little to no bullet expansion. A year or two ago the Backfire channel compared ballistic gel performance of several cartridges using the same bullet. At range, the least powerful, slowest round had the most penetration.

[Rodedawgg]

Stinky Coyote...

Is 125 in 308 a high enough sd for elk? Sounds a lot nicer to shoot than the 150s or 180s. I wasn't aware of the relatively soft 120 in 7-08. I guess because the idea of 7-08 never excited me much...nothing grabbed my imagination. 7x57, you bet, but I have a feeling that's only a caliber I can play with after I get good at reloading. One day, hopefully sooner rather than later, I won't be dependent on off the shelf stuff, it'll just be an option available. I've always heard 308 was the most versatile for off the shelf ammo and 30-06 if you handload. Still, unless I score a Garand or a Winchester 94, not too interested in 30-06. Maybe if a WWI bolt rifle in that came into my possession...There's something about the grendel that did catch my brain, but I don't know what other than they're stupidly efficient. Which is interesting to me lol.

Yeah, the bullet weight matters a bunch. From my reloading manuals it looks like the amount of powder makes a huge difference too. That's why something like the 6ARC has less recoil than a 243Win at a given velocity. It uses about 25% less powder to get there because of the pressure. That stuff fascinates me.

I was kinda looking slowly at the 300 ham'r since it's meant to match the velocities and weights of a 30-30 but with the higher bc and sd bullets. I'm just not in a rush to go hit a 30 heavier than a 300blk at this moment, cause like you said, they do more hitting back than smaller calibers. But, in the AR as opposed to a lever gun or my Encore, it might not be that bad. If I could lay hands on some of the low-recoil (and expensive) 308 in the 150gr loaded down to about 2400fps, that'd be a good experiment. Future problems lol

Fess...

To be fair, I can't perform past 200 without smart munitions lol.

That's one of the things I like about the grendel...it seems to have more options for bullets that expand at lower rifle velocities than a lot of other cartridges. That's why I was double checking on the expansion of that pass through at 420yds. If it does that reliably, that's the kind of bullet/cartridge I want. Moderate velocity, holds that velocity well, and performs further out than I can.

Thanks!

[trubulator]

Out to 200 yards, I would not hesitate with ELDM, SST or ABLRs. Wait for a broadside shot and hit the heart/lungs rather than trying to bust any of the big, heavy bones. SSTs and ELDMs have sectional density similar to the 165 grain Partitions I use in 30-06, and ABLRs are well over that.

My plan is to try to bag a deer with Dad's Marlin first. If I haven't seen a cow elk by then, I will either use the 30-06 if the hunting has been poor and we as a party are looking hard for meat, or I will use a Grendel with an ABLR load if meat has been raining from Heaven and another cow is just a bonus.

[JASmith]

Rodedawgg, the challenge with classic 125 gr bullets in the .308 is the cup and core versions tend to have rather thin jackets that work well for smaller animals like varmints and smaller deer but tend to open rather quickly.

There are couple of 125 gr lead free bullets lake Barnes and Lehigh that ought to be good elk medicine.

[grayfox]

in a 308 look for the 125 gr nosler accubond. or a 110 mono like barnes ttsx. you can hand-load the 110 ttsx to ~2900 and put it into a 308-20" with muzzle brake, recoil like a 243. Don't shoot these freehand, use a tripod or bipod or a benchrail, good to 250. Also a pachmayr or similar stock/shoulder pad. I load that in my 308/20", and 2800 fpa for the 125's. T-rex bullets also have some good mono's. I haven't thought about the 125 gr .308 sierra Tgk (the innards are a "little tougher" than the gameking per sierra) but trouble with lots of these bullets right now is availability. Barnes has a 130 gr ttsx you can handload for 308 also.
My rule of thumb on elk is minimum 1500 ftlb for bull, and 1250 or so for a cow with good penetration. These will both do that. for the 110 ttsx that means ~150 for a bull and 220 yds for a cow. Accubond, 200 yds bull and 300 for a cow.

As to the hammr, they need stubby .308 bullets so I wouldn't go there for an elk, I see mine as maybe ~125 for deer only.

So no 6.5mm for elk in Kentucky? bummer. I'd do my 6.5 creed in 130, or grendel (22" barrel coming soon) in the 129 ablr. lots of bullet choices and available too.
I have to stay away from big recoils too.

[Stinky Coyote]

Stinky Coyote...

Is 125 in 308 a high enough sd for elk? Sounds a lot nicer to shoot than the 150s or 180s. I wasn't aware of the relatively soft 120 in 7-08. I guess because the idea of 7-08 never excited me much...nothing grabbed my imagination. 7x57, you bet, but I have a feeling that's only a caliber I can play with after I get good at reloading. One day, hopefully sooner rather than later, I won't be dependent on off the shelf stuff, it'll just be an option available. I've always heard 308 was the most versatile for off the shelf ammo and 30-06 if you handload. Still, unless I score a Garand or a Winchester 94, not too interested in 30-06. Maybe if a WWI bolt rifle in that came into my possession...There's something about the grendel that did catch my brain, but I don't know what other than they're stupidly efficient. Which is interesting to me lol.

Yeah, the bullet weight matters a bunch. From my reloading manuals it looks like the amount of powder makes a huge difference too. That's why something like the 6ARC has less recoil than a 243Win at a given velocity. It uses about 25% less powder to get there because of the pressure. That stuff fascinates me.

I was kinda looking slowly at the 300 ham'r since it's meant to match the velocities and weights of a 30-30 but with the higher bc and sd bullets. I'm just not in a rush to go hit a 30 heavier than a 300blk at this moment, cause like you said, they do more hitting back than smaller calibers. But, in the AR as opposed to a lever gun or my Encore, it might not be that bad. If I could lay hands on some of the low-recoil (and expensive) 308 in the 150gr loaded down to about 2400fps, that'd be a good experiment. Future problems lol

Fess...

To be fair, I can't perform past 200 without smart munitions lol.

That's one of the things I like about the grendel...it seems to have more options for bullets that expand at lower rifle velocities than a lot of other cartridges. That's why I was double checking on the expansion of that pass through at 420yds. If it does that reliably, that's the kind of bullet/cartridge I want. Moderate velocity, holds that velocity well, and performs further out than I can.

Thanks!

no I wouldn't like the 308 125gr cup and core at 2600 for the sd issue for elk size game, it's more of a deer only sd, the 7-08 120 though starts to look better, and yes that's the beauty of the 6.5 Grendel and 123's, when you play with only 30 grains of powder you're at niche end of things so the formula chosen on bullet for game intended is more critical to get right, the Grendel 123 is max efficiency and great performer with enough of the right numbers to do elk size game at normal hunting distances, still at the niche end though and of course placement is always king but so much easier to place things with nice lighter recoiling guns etc.

I know OP wants to do this on the 6.8 spc due to caliber restrictions, reloading will be the best and only way imo. I've had one and wouldn't have another, I know there are guys on rokslide killing elk with .223 and 77gr tmk's to 400 but my lower limit for bullet weight is 120 gr so I wouldn't go that route myself. I would just buy something bigger and run reduced velocity loads if I wanted light recoiling performance. Good excuse to get another rifle, and bonus is you could step up anytime with full power loads and have a bigger hammer in the toolbox, not a bad thing?

[LRRPF52]

[video=youtube_share;AO51KPbbmFk]https://youtu.be/AO51KPbbmFk[/video]

[LRRPF52]

Quality trigger time on relevant target sizes, with an experienced mentor to guide you through stalking, are more important than the type of bullet, but the bullet should still be optimum.

6.5 Grendel allows you to get tons of trigger time without any recoil penalties, while being able to spot for yourself and immediately acquire positive-loop feedback, unlike larger cartridges, especially magnums.

That 14yr-old youth hunter in the above video was taken through repeated training at 500yds on smaller steel targets with a 24” 6.5 Grendel, then guided by someone with over 100 successful elk hunts.

She made a great 1st-round shot into the vitals at 390yds, having settled into a solid field position that was familiar enough for her to be confident in it based on her training.

I’ve seen dudes who maybe scratched into a few cartridges of their 20rd box of magnum ammunition for a rough zero, then blast away 6-8 rounds on opening day in elk season, with a wounded animal running off, never to be seen again.

Those same guys will tell this successful hunter that 6.5 Grendel isn’t ethical for killing elk, they’re too tough, etc.

I would have agreed with them before I saw all the people who have filled their tags with Grendel, understanding their limits.

A big thing people overlook is running the ballistics up at elk altitudes, where we see them at 8,000 - 11,000ft in season. That increases the expansion threshold and ft-lbs performance of 6.5 Grendel a bit, but not into long range territory where magnums are appropriate.


In this video, he blames the bullet type for a hunting error where the animal is getting ready to move, which affected his shot placement, putting it into the hind quarters.

ELD-M works fine for killing, and any other type of bullet would have produced the same results with bad placement due to animal movement during the time of flight.
[video=youtube_share;8yCddWv62Ig]https://youtu.be/8yCddWv62Ig[/video]

[grayfox]

That Colorado hunt was the one I was thinking of!!!
That was a beauty! Note however, also, that she put 3 shots into the bull at that distance.
So testimony to her practice routine!

Problem for OP is, for elk in Ky you have to be .277 or larger for rifle...

[LRRPF52]

Maybe the 95gr TTSX for 6.8 SPC.

The cup and core bullets of 120-130gr weight in the 6.8 fragment quite a bit, or don’t expand enough at its impact velocities.

120gr SST is great for deer and hogs, but is short and when it fragments, doesn’t have the same penetration as bullets with higher SD like 123gr SST 6.5mm.

Xman has some great threads on all the bullet performance for 6.8 SPC.

KY needs to change that silly law. Utah has way bigger game, with our mule deer and elk, and we only have .24 caliber minimum for large game requirements for rifle.

[Rodedawgg]

Well, I have an upper on the way or at least "processing" lol), and now have some of the 123gr Hornady Black ELDMs. Now I just gotta wait and see how I like em. Thanks for the advice on them...may try out the 123gr SSTs when I see some to see if they shoot any different. I'm excited to start working with them not just to see if I like them, but to start working on building my own accuracy out farther. I gotta say, when I took one out of the box, I had to laugh that so much potential is in such an unassumingly tiny package. Astonishing what something that adorable is capable of. I'm definitely excited to try out the Grendel.

As for the .308 and the Ham'r rounds...

I think the Ham'rs are optimized for LFPs. They claim under 200yds it's a viable elk round, but they also were dissing on 300blk as "exploding" on the skin when it hit a dear in the shoulder...which I think was probably bad bullet choice for shooting at bony bits. I don't like that kind of self-promotion. But still, it's designed to be a 30-30 in an AR15-sized package. With (potentially) better bullets.

I figured the 125gr 308 may have been a bit light for the elk, at least in a traditional bullet. I did find HSM makes a low-recoil 150gr that has an MV about 2350. I could see if I like Ham'r/30-30 velocities (and recoil) for the low, low price of $3 a round (where's my vomiting-in-horror emoji?). Still, $60 is a lot cheaper test of the recoil than than a whole upper or new T/C barrel. And I know it's a specialty bullet with a small market so the cost needs to be higher, it's just way more than I've ever paid for cartridges before. Acclimating to the new realities....

Yeah, I was asking about 6.8SPC for the KY elk restrictions, just in case I get to give it a go there. There's nothing I've found in the 27 calibers between a 6.8SPC and 270. I'm not willing to deal with 270Win recoil, and if I have to load those down, I may as well load the 6.8 up (for my T/C). 6.8 can be loaded into lower 270Win territory; at least in the Speer 15 manual it can. My others don't take the 6.8 as high, but Speer has a recipe for a 130gr at 2600fps. and it uses less powder than a 270 for the same velocity at a given weight (again, in Speer 15). It all might be more academic than anything in the long run. Maybe the Kentuckians can figure it out and come down in caliber requirements. Does any other state have a caliber requirement that big on elk?

I don't have a lot of excuses to get more rifles, at least not to keep. I'm in a cycle of figuring out what works best for me so I can strip back. I don't have a lifestyle where I can justify a bunch of rifles.


LRRPF52...
Yeah, I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out shot placements on things in the past year. That video of the girl taking the elk is one of the things that got me looking seriously at the grendel. And I also agree (due to a year or so of lurking here to learn best placement with various grendel bullets) that the Backfire dude shot the wrong spot for the bullet. I can't depend on altitude improving expansion thresholds, though. Here in the east, our biggest mountain is a bit under 6700ft. so average elk altitudes are more likely 3000-4000ft. I think you guys out west would have to fall down a well to hit our altitudes lol. I agree that KY should change the law, Virginia only has a 24 caliber restriction, and they're doing fine. And if you find an elk outside the 3 managed counties (which you can only hunt if they draw your name), your deer tag lets you harvest an elk. It's rare that it happens, but it does from time to time. And according to Virginia DWR, those elk outside the manged counties wander in from KY. I reckon a Virginia 24 caliber is more potent than a Kentucky 24, 25, or 26 cal lol.

I will look up Xman's threads, thanks for the tip.

Excited to try this grendel thing after nearly 2 years of looking into it. I really hope I enjoy shooting it lol.

Thanks!