Well.. that just happened. ATF classification ruling that ArmBrace = SBR

[grayfox]

+1 ^^^ well said!!!

[LRRPF52]

I learned a bit more about Congressman Harold Knutson who created this whole mess specific to SBRs.

In 1924, he was caught and arrested for sodomy with a man named Leroy M. Hull.

Police found him in a parked car on the side of the road in Arlington, Virginia, with Labor Department employee Leroy M. Hull and arrested him on a “grave moral offense”. Knutson tried to bribe the officers with $100, but was indicted. This “grave moral offense” was probably sodomy, but a jury ultimately acquitted him after Congressional colleagues testified as character witnesses. Homosexuality was regarded as an unspeakable matter in 1924 (“don’t ask, don’t tell” comes to mind) and this incident may have given him some problems in his reelection bid, as his race was closer than in 1922. Nonetheless, Knutson survived.

(FBI Director Hoover was big on sexual blackmail, and was a homosexual himself living quite openly with Clyde Tolson, the Assistant FBI Director. It’s interesting that Hoover claimed that the Mafia was just a myth, an urban legend in people’s minds that didn’t exist.)

Congressman Knutson’s history is intriguing because he got elected into the same seat in the House that was formerly held by Charles Lindberg Sr.

We know Knutson because of his unnecessary suggestion that rifles be added to the NFA, even when the AG told him rifles weren’t mentioned, so no need to be concerned about them being affected.

He was also found to be a Nazi sympathizer and asset during WWII, after a review of Nazi records showed this many years later.




Mr. KNUTSON: General, would there be any objection, on page 1, line 4, after the word” shotgun” to add the words” or rifle” having a barrel less than 18 inches? The reason I ask that is I happen to come from a section of the State where deer hunting is a very popular pastime in the fall of the year and, of course, I would not like to pass any legislation to forbid or make it impossible for our people to keep arms that would permit them to hunt deer.

Attorney General CUMMINGS: Well, as long as it is not mentioned at all, it would not interfere at all.

Mr. KNUTSON: It seems to me that an 18 -inch barrel would make this provision stronger than 16 inches, knowing what I do about firearms.

Attorney General CUMMINGS: Well, there is no objection as far as we are concerned to including rifles after the word” shotguns” if you desire.

[Hansel&Grendel]

Here is a 25 page Amicus Brief filed 02/27/2023 that succinctly summarizes the case against the ATF Pistol Brace Rule:

https://www.blackburn.senate.gov/service...E92BF588F5

[LRRPF52]

And there is no question that is what is happening here. The Rule’s genesis was a speech President Biden gave on April 8, 2021, concerning gun control measures he wanted to take. In that speech, the President admitted openly that he “asked the Attorney General and his team to identify for me immediate, concrete actions I could take now without having to go through the Congress.” President’s Remarks on Gun Violence Prevention Efforts, 2021 Daily Comp. Pres. Doc. 298, at 3 (Apr. 8, 2021), https://bit.ly/3Ywtt6D. He revealed that “[w]hether Congress acts or not, I’m going to use all the resources at my disposal as President” to implement his agenda. Id. at 4. And one of the unliteral measures he identified was “to treat pistols modified with stabilizing braces ... [as] subject to the National Firearms Act.”

Executive Branch overstepping into Legislative Branch, while simultaneously violating the Bill of Rights.

[LRRPF52]

Interesting how anytime legislate momentum is gained for eliminating unconstitutional laws or ATF rulings, a mass shooting happens.

I’m told it’s just a coincidence of course, like with the Hearing Protection Act after the Vegas shooting.

HPA was set to pass with the SHARE Act, but was then tabled after Vegas.

[Serenitynow]

Interesting how anytime legislate momentum is gained for eliminating unconstitutional laws or ATF rulings, a mass shooting happens.

I’m told it’s just a coincidence of course, like with the Hearing Protection Act after the Vegas shooting.

HPA was set to pass with the SHARE Act, but was then tabled after Vegas.

We were talking about the possibility of these type of events being " sponsored by " some anti- gun/ 2nd Amendment group today at work.
This last on in Nashville is only about 60 miles from here.
I guess we'll never really know.

[grayfox]

Wife and I have been discussing the same thing.
The twsit I think is involved is, that there is some underground xnsgndr wbste (maybe just a pur-n-simpl leftist site) that works up people to become the left's "suciide shxxterz/bmmrz." And when they need an event then they ramp up the "talk" on there to get one to go off the rxxls.
Anyway this would not be surprising b/c the marxxxt view is to radicalize and foment violence at every turn.
spilchek intenshunal do to govt ai/snooprz.
Anytime hidinbidn gets lower in the polls then viola! another trajedy.

[Hansel&Grendel]

So, the GOP controlled House Judiciary Committee in the early hours on April 20th voted to repeal the ATF’s Ruling on AR Pistols with stabilizing braces as being subject to the NFA. However, the Bill faces a tough if not impossible battle to get through the Senate before heading to the President.

Biden will not sign the Bill if it somehow comes to him; and there are not enough votes to override a veto, even if some Democrats vote with Republicans. Several news and social media outlets are touting this as a major victory which it really isn't. It is a step in the right direction. The real hope at this juncture is Judicial Injunctive Relief pending full Judicial review. Not sure if or when that will happen prior to May 31st.

[LRRPF52]

Here is the Prohibition/Depression-Era former DNC Chair and then Attorney General Homer Stille Cummings’ intent on the NFA and permits or papers:

"…And I am assuming in all this, of course, that the criminal elements are not going to obtain permits and they are not going to obtain licenses, and they are not going to be able to bring themselves within those protective requirements. Therefore, when we capture one of those people, we have simply a plain question to propound to him—where is your license; where is your permit? If he cannot show it, we have got him and his weapons and we do not have to go through an elaborate trial, with all kinds of complicated questions arising. That is the theory of the bill.”

"Now, you say that it is easy for criminals to get weapons. I know it; but I want to make it easy to convict them when they have the weapons. That is the point of it. I do not expect criminals to com ply with this law; I do not expect the underworld to be going around giving their fingerprints and getting permits to carry these weapons, but I want to be in a position, when I find such a person, to convict him because he has not complied.”

MR. McCLINTIC: I would like to ask just one question. I am very much interested in this subject. What in your opinion would be the constitutionality of a provision added to this bill which would require registration, on the part of those who now own the type or class of weapons that are included in this bill?

ATTORNEY GENERAL CUMMINGS: We were afraid of that, sir.

MR. McCLINTIC: Afraid it would conflict with State laws?

ATTORNEY GENERAL CUMMINGS: I am afraid it would be unconstitutional.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Fascinating historical info. Thanks, LR. I understand what AG Cummings thinks he was trying to do, but it was — and is — an unconstitutional infringement of the 2A.

Seems comparable to requiring the registration of typewriters to be able to easily arrest potential libelers: "You have a license for that typewriter? No? You were planning to commit libel, weren't you? Off to jail!"

Good intentions don't excuse tyrannical laws.

[jasper2408]

Rep. Thomas Massie questions ATF Director Dettelbach about the new pistol brace classification. Video is 5:32 long.


https://media.gab.com/system/media_attac...0492c3.mp4

[LRRPF52]

Last week we had the 6th Circuit ruling on Bump Stocks, where the 3 panel judge unanimously ruled in favor of the plaintiff against the ATF.

In 2 of the judges’ remarks detailing their interpretation of the law and ATF’s behavior, they literally said the ATF flip-flopped on the issue, stating one thing where Bump Stocks were perfectly fine and not machine-guns, then changing their minds and saying they are now machine-guns.

This has significant implications for the pistol brace ruling, because we have at least 10 years of precedence where ATF issued multiple determination letters to private individuals, manufacturers, and LE agencies stating that pistol braces did not change the definition of pistols from Title I to Title II firearms, even if end-users employed their braced pistols in ways not intended by the manufacturers.

ATF Director Dettelbach was really taken to task by Congress last week, where he continually shows a lack of awareness and understanding of this issue, tried to skirt around the fact that if the pistol brace ruling goes into effect, it would create millions of felons overnight. This exchange was interesting:

[video=youtube_share;9pveteocUpE]https://youtu.be/9pveteocUpE[/video]

[dammitman]

so is the upcoming deadline ban on the brace still on? i cant tell for sure,,,,,how about the free registration of a short barreled rifle is it still doable? just trying to get things in a nutshell

[grayfox]

Well.....
I'm not a lawyer, so this is just IMO.
Believe the "ban date" is still on, 5/31.
Technically yes you can submit, but what I've read is that perhaps, if your application is not "received", or "approved" or at some sort of stage (and how do we really know that anyway? They will be so swamped), theoretically they can come to your house on 6/1 and arrest you for an illegal brace/sbr. The application, as it were, gives you away. That is one scenario I have heard, frankly it would make me nervous.
So I don't know what a person should actually do at this point.

[lazyengineer]

so is the upcoming deadline ban on the brace still on? i cant tell for sure,,,,,how about the free registration of a short barreled rifle is it still doable? just trying to get things in a nutshell

Yes.

You have about 2 weeks to decide what you are going to do. ATF has stated many things, but simplistically, they no longer will accept the argument that a <16" BBL configuration with a typical current ArmBrace, isn't designed and intended to be a stock.

[LRRPF52]

27 States have filed a lawsuit against the ATF and DOJ over this case, so something is going to have to give.

That sort of legal momentum and gravity doesn’t just go away.

The ATF Director was grilled harder than any I’ve seen 2 weeks ago:

[video=youtube_share;5YDPqeTHgGc]https://youtu.be/5YDPqeTHgGc[/video]

Until we get a SCOTUS ruling though, we’re left in limbo. The Senate isn’t going to accept any legislation nor would Pedo Pete sign it anyway of course. He’s the one who demanded ATF go on the attack since he wasn’t having much luck with executive overreach.

This case really is in the hands of the States and SCOTUS for those who seek permission from others to exercise their rights.

[lazyengineer]

Well.....
I'm not a lawyer, so this is just IMO.
Believe the "ban date" is still on, 5/31.
Technically yes you can submit, but what I've read is that perhaps, if your application is not "received", or "approved" or at some sort of stage (and how do we really know that anyway? They will be so swamped), theoretically they can come to your house on 6/1 and arrest you for an illegal brace/sbr. The application, as it were, gives you away. That is one scenario I have heard, frankly it would make me nervous.
So I don't know what a person should actually do at this point.

Not really. The disinformation on this topic is pretty bad. Stay the Hell away from YouTube Personalities for info on this topic.

Here's the hard reality - this isn't going away. If you have an affected item, it's going to be considered an NFA SBR violation starting June 1. Unless the court system also tosses SBR law; ATF has basically declared Game On; and will take people to court for the judge to decide if that armbrace that looks like a stock, and works like a stock; wasn't intended to be a stock. Don't expect that conversation to end well. Fortunately you're not PSA and not that interesting... until you are.

As to the paperwork:
Your application gets an automated submittal acknowledgment email, which counts basically as a temporary stamp for as long as it takes to get an official ruling. If the official ruling is a declined, you can resubmit. There is no swamping of the system going on, as compliance statistics posted by ATF were pretty low - but that was early on, so maybe that's changed. Approval times are random, with some folks getting it in just 3 weeks. If you submit on the last day, and it takes 5 years to approve, your submittal email still covers you for the duration. If you are then denied, you are not raided, but you do have to then either resubmit (via paper - for some reason; but they specifically state this), or comply with alteration requirements. Again, you aren't that interesting - they made it clear gun dealer and commercial entities are going to be their focus. If you are PSA; expect them to be at your door on June 2nd. but then, PSA has quietly gotten into compliance with this whole thing months ago.

Also, be aware it is codified law that NFA applications cannot be used as evidence against you - and I don't think can even be used to initiate an investigation. there are known felons who got machine guns in and got to keep them, during the 1968 Amnesty. TBH, I kind of wonder if you could admit to heinous crimes in one, and then be protected; but I wouldn't advise trying that card! (or committing heineos crimes; and I think it has to be germane to the application to be protected)

What's the smart play, and what should you do? I guess that's an individual decision. Me, I think a 14.5" Pin and Weld is a fantastic configuration anyway. If the plan is for this to just go away - it's not. You won't get raided, and even if you did, in most cases it'll be a Move On About Your Business Citizen, as they seize the offending item. Congrats, you just got robbed by Highwaymen. But it'll be a gun that as time goes on, you won't be able to take to competition, use for hunting, use for range sessions and a public range, and definitely don't want to use for home defense - last thing you need is to be holding something now enforced as an NFA violation, while standing over someone bleeding out on the front steps.

Personally, if you want to maximize your hedge over the next 20 years, having SOME things in NFA, and other things not, kind of IMHO protects you best. Like, say.. if you had a machine gun in 1967. Registered it in the 1968 amnesty. And then decided you really wanted a machine gun in 1988, after they closed to the NFA and banned new machine-gun registrations. The one thing I am sure of, is there will be some large gun control in the next 20 years, and it'll be ugly. It's possible the portion of guns in the NFA registry will be the first ones to go. Or it's possible the portion of guns in the NFA registry, are the only ones left to legally have and use. Personally, I consider that to be the more likely. In any event, having a pile in both locations, might prove the best hedge to continuing to (legally and usably) have something - JMHO.

[LRRPF52]

[video=youtube_share;9_bVQ_Gc2iU]https://youtu.be/9_bVQ_Gc2iU[/video]

[LRRPF52]

It’s crazy that a sodomite Nazi sympathizer in Congress (Knutson) could have such a lasting and abusive set of effects perpetrated on the people all these years just because he thought he was protecting deer-hunters in Minnesota in 1934.

Nobody in ATF even knows that they are executing the crimes of a dead Nazi sympathizer, who later went on to become a Nazi asset mole within US government during the War. That would probably excite some of them, come to think of it.

It’s bad enough that it’s totally unconstitutional in and of itself, but when you realize the wretched piece of excrement that scumbag was, it makes the whole thing all the worse.

I didn’t think I could despise the ATF any more than I did 40 years ago when I started to learn about their existence, but the more I have studied their lurid and cursed origins, I gotta say that it is extremely difficult to comprehend the level of treachery and betrayal that underlines their entire existence. That baffoon they have as the director now only highlights their incompetence and the fact that they are enemies of the People.

Check out this latest example of their continued assault on people with actual home visits:

[video=youtube_share;lR1yI0ZyVec]https://youtu.be/lR1yI0ZyVec[/video]

Are those tards actually wearing steel plates with hangar rings on them for body armor?

[dammitman]

well, it sounds like again that if a person has any assembled ar15 upper assembly in any caliber with a barrel less that 16" in length that also does not have a registered ar15 lower as SBR, they will be in violation of having a short barreled rifle thats not registeresd. OK. this is not new news.
and dont pretend that you thought those freakin arm supports were gonna last for long! that would be ignorant,,,,,