6.5 Grendel versus 6mm ARC for whitetail

[biodsl]

With what Geissele is doing, will there be logistical problems? The 6ARC is no longer a bolt/barrel/magazine proposition?

[lazyengineer]

In this YouTube interview, Colion Noir discusses three weapons with a Geissele representative, among them Geissele's 6mmARC rifle (at 2:13) developed for the military. At 5:01 the rep says, “I’m confident you’re going to see a lot more of this caliber and a lot more of this rifle — definitely within special operations — but throughout the Department of Defense. I’m very confident.”

In a Military Arms Channel Youtube video, there is a short mention starting at 14:10 that the SEALs are, indeed, using 6mmARC. For video, click HERE.

Between those two bits of info and, of course, Hornady's pronouncements, I consider it confirmed that the SEALs asked for an improved AR15-platform cartridge from Hornady and got the 6mm ARC.

And then, as LR52 posted elsewhere, from the Army side there's FN developing the slightly larger non-AR15 platform 6.5x43 LICC.

Interesting times!

We shall see. But the same thing has been said and seen with. 300 BO, 6.8SPC, and even Grendel to a degree.

As you say, we shall see!

[JASmith]

I didn't see your link Mr. Smith or perhaps I missed it, but believe this is it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4fA3ji3fw4

Thanks for the callout!

You may have read the post before I remembered that I neglected to insert the link: https://www.hornady.com/6mmARC#!/

The critical information is in the first paragraph. The video starts out the same as the YouTube link you provided. (I generally opt for the printed word because videos seem to take a long time to make the point -- unless the graphics are a key part of the information!)

[LRRPF52]

When they say “DoD entities”, they aren’t talking about SEALs in SOCOM.

There has been an effort to divert attention from the actual origins of the RFP by mentioning SEAL Team 3, but if it had actually been a solicitation within SOCOM and NAVSPECWAR, you’d hear all about it and be able to see the solicitations for rifles and ammunition. SOCOM has become very big-Army-like in terms of bureaucracy, acquisition, overweight with staff officers everywhere, huge budget, public relations, etc.

It’s also telling that the units who asked for a solution have been actively fighting enemy combatants during GWOT, and already had 7.62 NATO carbines in their inventories that were not meeting their requirements due to weight and limited performance at distance, with close range penalties and limited magazine-carrying capacity on the soldier’s load. They’ve tried various types of 7.62 NATO solutions for decades after the limitations of 5.56 were apparent for DMs and Snipers when reaching out past 450m.

There’s a good discussion about this by a former JSOC operator on P&S podcast from several years back.

He deployed to his unit after they had already been midway into their deployment, and had to sign for and manage their ASP as one of his additional duties. He found crates and stacks of SR-25, M-14, and other 7.62 NATO mags and asked them what was the deal with those.

They said they tried everyone carrying SR-25s or 7.62 rifles for a bit to deal with distance, but it turned out to be an abortion.

Guys had to have mags stacked on the backs of their plate carriers and inside assault packs just to have a basic load, and would ask dudes behind them for a mag change.

Some would even have a mag bag on the helos for insertion and feed from them to service targets on the infil so as to not deplete any mags from their fighting load kit.

He described it as needing a combat squire to carry 7.62 mags for you basically, which was obviously not viable.

[BluntForceTrauma]

When they say “DoD entities”, they aren’t talking about SEALs in SOCOM.

I thought it was the SEALs cuz the guy in the Military Arms Channel video I referenced personally knows an active-duty SEAL who is "using" 6mm ARC (whether training, testing, or deployed — I couldn't discern).

He described it as needing a combat squire to carry 7.62 mags for you basically, which was obviously not viable.

And why the 6.8 NGSW is DOA. (Well, to save face — or until the officer managing the program retires — they'll salvage something from it.)

[Fess]

With what Geissele is doing, will there be logistical problems? The 6ARC is no longer a bolt/barrel/magazine proposition?

It certainly seems that these fancy rifles will never be general issue. You have hit on a point, though. If they are going to change that much, you might as well go with a newly designed rifle that does not have the limitations of the AR15. That is clearly FN's position with the LICC project. The existing M4's would just be demoted to PDW's for non "close combat" soldiers.

There may also be some games going on behind the scenes if some of the 6 ARC rifles are not using the Geissele lowers. It depends on what is considered a new rifle for accounting. To follow the civilian model, for example, as long as you have a serialized lower, everything else, including the trigger package, could be changed and you technically have the same gun. Sometimes it is easier to claim that you are merely refurbishing or upgrading an existing rifle than getting an all new one.

[LRRPF52]

I thought it was the SEALs cuz the guy in the Military Arms Channel video I referenced personally knows an active-duty SEAL who is "using" 6mm ARC (whether training, testing, or deployed — I couldn't discern).

There are SEALs in one of the DoD entities who likely put forth the solicitation, but not part of the SOCOM-side elements.

The other "DoD entities" are mostly from the Army, if my reading of the tea leaves is right. These elements were forced to cultivate a more cooperative relationship after a certain General took command of their parent organization, as there was a lot of competition and rivalry between them up until the 2000s.

[SDguy]

There are a couple of things to keep in mind when using the ARC for hunting:

When using classic cup and core hunting bullets, one should focus on deer weighing less than 130 - 150lb and use proper hunting bullets weigh at least 85 grains.

The advent of monometal lead-free bullets has changed things a bit. Monometal hunting bullets weighing as little as 50 grains should work reliable on these lighter deer. Much like with the 243 Win, monometal bullets in the 75-90 gr class will give reasonably reliable results on deer weighing as much as 300 lb.

The heavier bullet weights available for the Grendel will work well on game weighing twice as much.[/QUOTE]

Wow, good for a chuckle

Ill agree that Ill generally favor a heavier bullet offering for the 6mm ARC for hunting. Berger 108 grain Elite Hunter was very proficient at cleanly putting the buck below at a laser ranged 254 yards. Dropped stone dead at the crack of the shot with a brachial plexus hit. Large bodied 5ish year old near 300 lbs.

Bolt action 6mm ARC muzzle velocity of 2780 FPS. Impact velocity at 254 yards 1370 ft lbs available on impact. Not sure how much more I needed or what the Grendel may have had to offer over and above the 108grain Elite Hunter load in the 6mm ARC.


Call me crazy, though I never considered I may not have had enough gun when taking the shot on this guy.

[JASmith]

Regarding 6mm performance on deer, look over user comments on Midway and elsewhere.

You will see that 100gr-class bullets uniformly get excellent reviews in the southern tier of states, particularly in Florida, Texas and Arizona. These deer generally weigh less than 130 lb as adults.

Move to more northerly states where deer runn as much as 330 lb, and a few complaints of wounded and lost deer start to appear.

We see very few complaints of this nature with 125 grains and heavier cup and core bullets.

[Stinky Coyote]

Regarding 6mm performance on deer, look over user comments on Midway and elsewhere.

You will see that 100gr-class bullets uniformly get excellent reviews in the southern tier of states, particularly in Florida, Texas and Arizona. These deer generally weigh less than 130 lb as adults.

Move to more northerly states where deer runn as much as 330 lb, and a few complaints of wounded and lost deer start to appear.

We see very few complaints of this nature with 125 grains and heavier cup and core bullets.

Interesting viewpoint not discussed often enough. Even though my main criteria formula is sd/construction/impact velocity and will trust it implicitly even below 120 grain bullets and into the 6mm's but as noted and agreed by most...the 6mm's fall into the 'niche' end of spectrum for big game hunting, and naturally that means sub 120 gr bullets. The .25 cals have some bridge the gap bullet weights from there to the 6.5's but the 6.5's on up generally starts a 120 gr....excluding most copper stuff.

Having said all that, my 4th criteria in my selection was bullet weight 120 grains or higher to be a legitimate (not niche) bullet choice for big game hunting, granted at the lighter end...but still legit. For some reason outside the numbers I was simply wanting to throw at least that amount of lead down range at game.

And that's a dandy buck a couple posts up. Have a friend who's been smashing things with 6-dasher with 105's at 2900 fps for long time, good size Alberta mature buck at 500m instant dead no prob. Very precise shooter and deadly on game. Big game a snap for him and that combo as he's usually smashing coyotes with it, in hurry up situations, running, at distances etc. There really is nothing that will make big game a breeze better than coyote hunting imo.

[SDguy]

I have lived & hunted the northern states for in excess of 40 years now & cut my teeth hunting large South Dakota Whitetail deer with the 6mm Rem. My experience has been the 100 grain .243 hunting, class bullets leave little or nothing to be desired for deer hunting when put up against 270 win, 7mm-08, 308 win 7 30-06 for example.

I'v had a few seasons under my belt with bolt action 6.5mm Grendel & the 6mm ARC on a mini action rifle with 22" barrels. For my use inside of 300 yards, 6mm Arc leaves little or nothing to be desired. YMMV

I do subscribe to the notion that bullet choice & placement is key with any cartridge.

[JASmith]

…

I do subscribe to the notion that bullet choice & placement is key with any cartridge.

You have stated one of the great truths for successful hunters!

Big game have even been harvested with well-placed shots from the tine 22 Long Rifle.

The problem is that the average time to collapse and death go up as the bullets get smaller — especially when a slight aiming, accuracy error or unexpected movement takes the shot away from the ideal impact point.

The statistics show that one’s chance of sucess, even with well-placed shots, go up with bullet weight.

Stinky’s 120 gr threshold for cup and core bullets is consistent with a substantial body of evidence.

[SDguy]

Find this interesting that, as a seasoned Archery hunter that subscribes to a heavier total arrow weight than most archery hunters, I do not feel compromised with an 85 - 87 grain all copper bullet or the 108 Grain Elite hunter from the 6mm ARC bolt action rifle on large bodied deer. Of the three deer I have taken with the 6mm ARC, two were taken with CNS shots. Two years under my belt with the ARC & expect to choose the ARC next fall as well.

[JASmith]

Those 85-87 gr all copper bullets perform as well on game as 120-145 gr bullets like the Elite Hunter and other cup and core hunting bullets.

Remember, bullet placement is # 1. Bullet weight and construction remain important, however.

[Jake TN]

Just wanted to provide a little different perspective. I think 6mm or 6.5 is more than enough to get the job done. Adreniline can do crazy things in deer. I have personally seen a deer run a 100 yards with a blown out heart from a 30-06.

[SDguy]

The fella I purchased my first 6.5 6rendel barrel from, started to open my eyes to the high shoulder shot, for dropping a deer in its tracks. Well i was a slow learner, as it wasn't until I accidentally hit a deer with archery tackle & the deer collapsed at the impact of the arrow that I really started to look at the high shoulder shot with a vested interest.

Turns out there is a nerve bundle / Brachial plexus that when hit right does shut down the CNS like a switch. Rarly successful with a bow & arrow so I do not recommend this as an intentional shot placement bow & arrow ever. Though with rifle this CNS shot placement comes with high recommendations from many including myself.

As a guy that has usually butchered my own deer I have come to favor a high neck shot when I am steady enough for a surgical shot placement. Same DRT as high shoulder with no lost meat & so much nicer to butcher a clean blood free carcass.

[JASmith]

The high shoulder shot applies to a lot more calibers and cartridges than just the 6 vs 6.5 discussion. I will nonetheless respond because it is easy to find discussions revealing reasons why the high shoulder shot is less than ideal in spite of the dramatic results from a well-placed shot.

The main problem with the high shoulder shot is that a small miss forward, above, or above and behind will usually result in a wounded and lost deer.

Aiming for the upper part of the heart gives a lot more margin for error. The miss high and forward triggers the brachial nerve. Misses in other directions by the same amount for the most part result in rapid loss of consciousness and short runs. The bullet weight suggestions apply to this type of shot placement.

Returning to the first line of this post -- there are good arguments for finding or starting a thread dedicated to shot placement even though it comes up frequently in a lot of our threads. Further discussions of shot placement should be carried out there.

[stonehog]

Love that idea - shot placement from all angles with pics!

[Stinky Coyote]

I'm with aiming middle of kill zone also. It's hunting. Field accuracy is half as good as bench accuracy most of the time. Highest probability of success when going for middle of the good stuff.

[Remington Jim]

You get heavier bullets if you LIKE with a 6.5 ! And more Avail selection of factory ammo . Either will KILL DEER WELL .