Grendel loading for elk at moderate ranges

[Moonshine44]

Good evening! I used to spend quite a lot of time on this forum in the past, but it has been a while. Recently a question came up that I felt could best be answered by the folks on this forum, so I hope you don't mind that my return is marked by a request for information. That having been said, here we go:

My daughter in law was raised in a non-hunting family and after marrying my son and learning to shoot she has decided to learn the hunter's craft. This year, due to a series of circumstances both fortunate and not, she, my son and their family moved home to our family ranch and she really, really wants to start hunting. Our local deer herd has been decimated by the fish and wildlife commission's canine pets but our local elk herds are doing well, so I'm thinking that elk is where she will start her hunting adventures. To this point she has managed to not acquire any really bad habits, shooting-wise, and in fact shoots my son's Grendel AR almost better than he does. Consequently, I'm thinking that said AR is going to be her elk rifle, at least for the time being, but I'm not sure where I should be looking regarding bullets, etc. I do reload, so the possibilities will more than likely be based more on the availability of components than anything else...

I do have the two volume set of books on hunting with the Grendel that was produced by members of this forum, one of which suggests the use of 140 grain Nosler Partitions, but IIRC does not have load data for that bullet (if I'm mistaken please let me know. Gently...). Can any of you fine folks provide me with some suggestions for elk loads for the Grendel? Shots would be along the lines of 150 yards and under in the particular terrain that she would be hunting in.

Thanks in advance for any information anyone can provide!

[LRRPF52]

For 150yds and under, it will kill cleanly with shot placement through the heart/lungs with most hunting bullets.

You could do 129gr ABLR, one of the Maker REX or TREX bullets, Barnes 120gr TSX, 129gr SST, 130gr Berger Hunting VLD, 130gr TGK, 125gr Partition...

125gr Partition, 20” barrel


123gr SST, 16” barrel suppressed


120gr Barnes TSX, 20” barrel, 405yds



If you can have her train regularly with range ammo so she builds confidence, then get her zero’d with the hunting load to fill her tag, she’ll do fine within the range you specified.

Even knowing what I know from these successful hunts, I’m leaning on heavy/high BC 7mm sitting on 2-3x the powder you can put in a Grendel case, just because they rarely present shot opportunities for us at close ranges up in the Uintahs and Rockies if you’re looking for a specific bull. For cows and any smaller bull you come across, a Grendel will work out to farther than most people think. I’ve seen people that have taken elk with 6 BR and 6mm Creedmoor at 300yds DRT.

[Kilco]

When my young sister was 15 she drew a cow moose permit.

We watched her smoke it with a 243 AI pushing a Barnes TSX bullet and it dropped like a ton of bricks.

Shot placement and appropriate ranges are everything.

[CJW]

Excellent pictures 52, great article.

Chuck

[Stinky Coyote]

I'll vote hornady black factory ammo with 123 gr eld-m, it went 1" further in gel than sst did but others who've shot game with both seem happier with eld-m, hand load...eld-m also, high bc, high sd, and ideal expansion/penetration characteristics for Grendel velocities, has taken 13 big game animals for us without issue, including a moose at 125 yards and a whitetail at 420, most of it from a 16" barrel launching at 2386 fps. Expect 18" penetration with lots of damage internally and about 80% retention and 2-3x expansion at 2100 fps impact (200 yards 16" barrel). Nothing we routinely hunt will take that in the ribs out to 400 yards. Bullet still delivers a beautiful mushroom over 2x expansion with approx. 95% retention down to 1700 fps impact (which is about 500 yards from a 16" barrel at decent elevation). These are slow rigs, so tougher 'delayed expansion' type bullets not the answer, typical rapid expansion designs (a-max, ballistic tip, eld-m) act more like moderate expansion in Grendel velocities. You'll watch more drop, have shorter recoveries, and walk up to more with this formula than not. If you have a pressing need to shoot things through femurs or die on neighbouring properties then expect some rodeos with the barnes type stuff. They don't open up well enough for these velocities. You can do it all with one bullet in the Grendel and maximize the Grendel's 30 grains of powder burned...going to lower bc/sd options thinking of a singular purpose it 'may be better?' just hamstrings you. Don't waste your time imo.

[Moonshine44]

Thanks, folks! It looks like I may have found my bullet!

[BlogSarge]

Welcome back Moonshine. We expect some great pictures and an after-action report when she whacks one.

[Double Naught Spy]

95% retention down to 1700 fps impact (which is about 500 yards from a 16" barrel at decent elevation).

ELD-M 123s with 95% weight retention?

[Stinky Coyote]

ELD-M 123s with 95% weight retention?

https://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthre...post212367

1700 fps impact and recovered eld-m here, maybe the member will weigh it? I just guessed 95% looking at that nice little mushroom. What's your guess on retention there?

I know the fat whitetail doe I shot last year quartering at 420 yards was 1800 fps impact and exited after 15" of penetration so never got to see what retention might be like at that impact velocity but I've captured at 2100 fps impact on steep quartering whitetail buck and was 81% retention and 18" penetration. That 1700 fps impact I linked here his a lot higher than 81%. So that bullet really starts to behave like a delayed controlled expansion somewhere closer to the 1700 fps impact based on the link here. I'd love to see enough captured eld-m examples with known impact velocity (or elevation, muzzle velocity and shot distance to calculate) to show the impact velocity range inverse ration to retention expectation, I can visualize it in my head pretty well. Like 60% retention 2300, 70% 2200, 80% 2100, 90% 2000....something along those lines, I keep watching for the examples to roll in to stack on top of my own.

[imaguy3]

most of it from a 16" barrel launching at 2386 fps.

Just curious what load got you that velocity with eldm out of a 16" barrel?

[Double Naught Spy]

https://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthre...post212367

1700 fps impact and recovered eld-m here, maybe the member will weigh it? I just guessed 95% looking at that nice little mushroom. What's your guess on retention there?

I know the fat whitetail doe I shot last year quartering at 420 yards was 1800 fps impact and exited after 15" of penetration so never got to see what retention might be like at that impact velocity but I've captured at 2100 fps impact on steep quartering whitetail buck and was 81% retention and 18" penetration. That 1700 fps impact I linked here his a lot higher than 81%. So that bullet really starts to behave like a delayed controlled expansion somewhere closer to the 1700 fps impact based on the link here. I'd love to see enough captured eld-m examples with known impact velocity (or elevation, muzzle velocity and shot distance to calculate) to show the impact velocity range inverse ration to retention expectation, I can visualize it in my head pretty well. Like 60% retention 2300, 70% 2200, 80% 2100, 90% 2000....something along those lines, I keep watching for the examples to roll in to stack on top of my own.

Okay, so the retention was NOT 95% down to 1700 fps but 95% at 1700 fps (or 1695 fps).

I definitely wasn't getting 95% retention. I was getting chunks. However, I noticed with the 129s that if they go slow enough, they act more like soft points, hence the weight retention going up.

[Stinky Coyote]

Okay, so the retention was NOT 95% down to 1700 fps but 95% at 1700 fps (or 1695 fps).

I definitely wasn't getting 95% retention. I was getting chunks. However, I noticed with the 129s that if they go slow enough, they act more like soft points, hence the weight retention going up.

yes, good clarification to make here and I maybe worded that poorly, she's a sliding scale of retention to impact velocities, the eld-m does the same thing as impact velocities drop, not sure where 90%+ retention starts but I know it's going to start somewhere about 2000 or below. I'd guess about 1900 fps at this point. I wish I could have seen my 1800 fps impact from last years long doe, due to the exit and what I seen from exit its I'm assuming it was 90%+, and likely similar to this 1700 fps example just larger expansion/mushroom

we know it's ~95% at 1700 fps, and ~80% at 2100 fps from just two documented examples, the more we get the better, we may be able to fill out a bit of an 'expectation chart' for most body hits on big game as we collect more recovered examples?

if I had to whip up a retention/impact velocity chart and assuming things linear this what it would look like right now lol

100% 1600 fps and lower
96% 1700 fps (known whitetail example)
92% 1800 fps
88% 1900 fps
84% 2000 fps
80% 2100 fps (known whitetail example)
76% 2200 fps
72% 2300 fps
68% 2400 fps

however it won't be a linear relationship the front end and I don't mean retention in terms of all one piece recovered, I mean how much you'll find even if 3-5 pieces, we get a few more examples and will be able to give a better idea of these things but people can start visualizing off this, my observations on faster closer impacts where I've pulled shrapnel is maybe ~50% will end up the low end retention number

the closer or higher impact velocities we get rapid fragmenting expansion characteristics while still maintaining great penetration depths, we have been smashing black bears pretty close up and getting exits to offside hides on larger quartering bears with eld-m, this 1700 fps example is so good for showing closer to the end of the limits for the bullet to do good work, maybe 1500-1600 fps is the outer limit as the guy who shot the antelope at 752 yards with 24" AR figured 1500 fps impact with a-max (same bullet different tip density as eld-m) and it was a high shoulder shot that exited but blood out nose/mouth shows he got enough expansion/upset to catch lungs....good luck getting any of the tougher bullets to open up down to those velocities, so for those who may want shorter barrels like this guy with his 12" AR/320 yard buck/1700 fps impact...or those who want to shoot longer ranges from standard length barrels...the eld-m can do it all, every other bullet choice is a compromise to that versatility imo, the peak is the eld-m, you move downward from there

[imaguy3]

Just curious what load got you that velocity with eldm out of a 16" barrel?

Stinky... details?

[Stinky Coyote]

Stinky... details?

Hornady black factory ammo is all i shoot. 2386 fps out of my ruger American ranch 16.1” barrel. It shoots 2503 out of broken in howa 20” and 2552 out of a 23.5” cz American and a 24” proof carbon barrel it does 2605 fps. Happy Bill? (Ford vs Ferrari reference)

[Moonshine44]

Sorry I haven't been back here. I've been really busy. Ranching in winter, ya know?

Thanks again for all of the info!

[trubulator]

yes, good clarification to make here and I maybe worded that poorly, she's a sliding scale of retention to impact velocities, the eld-m does the same thing as impact velocities drop, not sure where 90%+ retention starts but I know it's going to start somewhere about 2000 or below. I'd guess about 1900 fps at this point. I wish I could have seen my 1800 fps impact from last years long doe, due to the exit and what I seen from exit its I'm assuming it was 90%+, and likely similar to this 1700 fps example just larger expansion/mushroom

we know it's ~95% at 1700 fps, and ~80% at 2100 fps from just two documented examples, the more we get the better, we may be able to fill out a bit of an 'expectation chart' for most body hits on big game as we collect more recovered examples?

if I had to whip up a retention/impact velocity chart and assuming things linear this what it would look like right now lol

100% 1600 fps and lower
96% 1700 fps (known whitetail example)
92% 1800 fps
88% 1900 fps
84% 2000 fps
80% 2100 fps (known whitetail example)
76% 2200 fps
72% 2300 fps
68% 2400 fps

however it won't be a linear relationship the front end and I don't mean retention in terms of all one piece recovered, I mean how much you'll find even if 3-5 pieces, we get a few more examples and will be able to give a better idea of these things but people can start visualizing off this, my observations on faster closer impacts where I've pulled shrapnel is maybe ~50% will end up the low end retention number

the closer or higher impact velocities we get rapid fragmenting expansion characteristics while still maintaining great penetration depths, we have been smashing black bears pretty close up and getting exits to offside hides on larger quartering bears with eld-m, this 1700 fps example is so good for showing closer to the end of the limits for the bullet to do good work, maybe 1500-1600 fps is the outer limit as the guy who shot the antelope at 752 yards with 24" AR figured 1500 fps impact with a-max (same bullet different tip density as eld-m) and it was a high shoulder shot that exited but blood out nose/mouth shows he got enough expansion/upset to catch lungs....good luck getting any of the tougher bullets to open up down to those velocities, so for those who may want shorter barrels like this guy with his 12" AR/320 yard buck/1700 fps impact...or those who want to shoot longer ranges from standard length barrels...the eld-m can do it all, every other bullet choice is a compromise to that versatility imo, the peak is the eld-m, you move downward from there

So do we think ELDM or SST in 123 grain flavor is the better hunting bullet? Maybe there is little difference in the field?

[Fess]

The SST has a skived jacket and is intended to mushroom whereas the ELDM is not. Nevertheless, a lot of people have had good luck hunting with ELDMs.

[trubulator]

The SST has a skived jacket and is intended to mushroom whereas the ELDM is not. Nevertheless, a lot of people have had good luck hunting with ELDMs.

The genesis of my question is that I have played with and now shot a couple of deer with SSTs, of which I bought a thousand. Other than for target shooting, any reason to buy ELDMs?

[Stinky Coyote]

The genesis of my question is that I have played with and now shot a couple of deer with SSTs, of which I bought a thousand. Other than for target shooting, any reason to buy ELDMs?

not really, they likely pretty close in performance, although pretty sure I've read more than once here some find longer runners and disappointed with sst and then tried eld-m and haven't gone back, at 14 big game and a wolf over 5 seasons now with only the eld-m, 10-420 yards, average shot distance 163 and average recovery 13 yards...all with the eld-m, we will not be changing, moose, bighorn sheep, mule deer, whitetails and a few black bears...the sst has a pretty good rep also so you can't likely go wrong, if you find something you don't like give the eld-m a try and shoot it until you find something you don't like...seems those who go that direction stay with the eld-m

[trubulator]

not really, they likely pretty close in performance, although pretty sure I've read more than once here some find longer runners and disappointed with sst and then tried eld-m and haven't gone back, at 14 big game and a wolf over 5 seasons now with only the eld-m, 10-420 yards, average shot distance 163 and average recovery 13 yards...all with the eld-m, we will not be changing, moose, bighorn sheep, mule deer, whitetails and a few black bears...the sst has a pretty good rep also so you can't likely go wrong, if you find something you don't like give the eld-m a try and shoot it until you find something you don't like...seems those who go that direction stay with the eld-m

Thanks. The SST expanded violently and provided an immediate end to the big doe I hit at 325 yards, so I don't really have complaints. Factory ELDM Black from Hornady shoots consistently well, so I may pick up some ELDMs and fool with them.