Technical gun cleaning discussion

[TedBrewer5]

This is a new thread I decided has a place here on the forum. After being a forum member for a couple of years as a Grendel owner and most of a year prior to that reading posts here I have learned a lot from many spirited discussions by forum members. So why not have a spot to to keep spirited discussion alive specifically pertaining to gun cleaning practices.

I will go first. Copper in or copper out?
I generally like a clean barrel which includes copper. I find it a tedious task to say the least but I like as few variables as possible for accuracy. And yes I should have spent higher than PSA but my 20” SS barrel will get me .75” shooting 120 gr Sierra pro hunters over 28 gr 8208.

[LR1955]

This is a new thread I decided has a place here on the forum. After being a forum member for a couple of years as a Grendel owner and most of a year prior to that reading posts here I have learned a lot from many spirited discussions by forum members. So why not have a spot to to keep spirited discussion alive specifically pertaining to gun cleaning practices.

I will go first. Copper in or copper out?
I generally like a clean barrel which includes copper. I find it a tedious task to say the least but I like as few variables as possible for accuracy. And yes I should have spent higher than PSA but my 20” SS barrel will get me .75” shooting 120 gr Sierra pro hunters over 28 gr 8208.

TB5:

What process do you use to clean your barrels and with what gear?

Copper in or out? When Sweets came out, guys used it and their patches were dark blue. The color of the patches was enough for guys to use copper remover. The question of it doing anything was never asked. Finally, after a couple of decades, a school of thought came about saying the copper fills microscopic voids in the barrel, making the barrel more consistent. I am surprised Sweets is still on the market but I like it if I get into old surplus ammo with corrosive primers. Otherwise, I never noticed a difference and saved my time and money. Like moly coated bullets -- when they first came out people swore by them. Then people started questioning their value in terms of the money spent and found out they did not score any better than bullets that were not moly coated.

I also think with the Grendel that rod guides and other esoteric pieces of cleaning gear are probably not worth the money. An AR needs the chamber cleaned but otherwise some solvent and a bore snake cleans the barrels just fine. I will spend time getting the bolt and bolt carrier cleaned though. Inside of the lower also. PITA but they can really get dirty.

I look at it like this. If you want to spend your time and money removing copper then go for it. I just think it a waste of time under the vast majority of shooting conditions so don't.

Remember that after you remove the copper and shoot the rifle, it takes time for all those pores in the barrel to fill with copper again and thus you have inconsistencies -- although I doubt anyone can measure them. Just sounds good.

LR-55

[VASCAR2]

I keep my self defense weapons clean but my other firearms get cleaned as I see the need. If a weapon was exposed to rain or condensation I’d clean and inspect the weapon. I carried blued, Nitride and stainless steel handguns in LE and never had any issues with rust or corrosion. If I was in inclement weather I wiped down my pistol when I got home. If I was drenched I’d disassemble and maybe remove the grips. I had one blued issued shotgun get wet in a police car trunk which leaked in the rain. The shotgun had a little surface rust on the top of the receiver which I removed. I warmed the shotgun metal and applied cold blue according to the directions to the affected area. This fixed the issue and was good enough to pass close inspection. I made sure to wipe down long guns or clean them if they were exposed to inclement weather. I treat my other firearms the same way and never had any issues.

I have a Shilen 20” 1:9 twist 6.5 Grendel which I had shot several hundred to a thousand rounds. I have shot a few hundred rounds of ammo loaded with CFE223 powder. I used some CLP and sweets when I cleaned the barrel. I was amazed how little residue was in that barrel and how easy it cleaned up. The Shilen barrel is my best shooter and I suspect the barrel was hand lapped before it was sold.

[lazyengineer]

Great thread - because TBH, I really don't know. Over the years, I've kind of leaned more towards LR1955's philosophy myself. My own practice is basically don't clean the rifle at all if just a simple outing. After a few hundred rounds, I'll maybe spray some CLP or equivilant through the ejection port onto the bolt, and maybe into the BCG vent hole. And pull a boresnake with a bit of CLP on it.

After 500 rounds or so, I sometimes will do a full barrel cleaning, just because. On that day, my practice (And I'm not saying this is The Correct way, just what I do)
Solvents:
-CLP or equivalent. Sometimes Royal Purple.
-Lubriplate, or Red Mobil One Grease
-BoreTech CU++ Solvent. (Note, not BoreTech Eleminator - read too many posts in other forums of people getting weird snail-trail etching in their bores in correlation to that stuff)
-Butches Solvent when I want a general copper + carbon solvent.


Process:
-Pull BCG and strip, whip down with cloth and then lube.
--Lube is Lubriplate or similar on any wear-location, bolt lugs (both sides), and Cam Pin.
--Then spray it all with CLP or Royal Purple.

-Push a dry patch through the bore, to get out the easy stuff
-then put a copper brush on the tip, and run it all the way through and all the way back, about 20 times (yes, that's a lot), to blow out the fouling via mild abrasion.
-The copper brush will leave copper deposition in it's own right.
-Dry patch
-Wet Cu++ Solvent Patch - it will be quite blue.
Note: (most of my outings involve more than one firearm, so I intermingle these cleaning steps to give some soak time)
-Dry patch - blue
-Repeat above 2 steps about 10-20 times, until patches come out basically clean.
-a couple extra dry patches to purge out the solvent
-a wet patch with CLP or Royal Purple (avoid lubes with Teflon)
-A dry patch

-Reassemble and store muzzle-down in the safe.

As LR1955 notes, your zero is now going to be off for your next shot, as the barrel is no longer the same. It will take at least 2 shots before you should trust POI to actually be about the same - sometimes more. Irrelevant if hunting a hog at 50 yards. More important, if your next stop is the 600 yard Mid-Range match.

[LRRPF52]

With AR-15s, I’m of the opinion that lubrication is far more important than cleaning.

Shooting suppressed might require you to clean more due to the amount of soot that accumulates in the action, but for standard AR-15s, I just keep adding thick lubrication when needed, and rarely clean them.

Chamber brushes for the AR-15 are good to run thought every once and a while, depending on your shoot schedule.

On mine, any steel surface that is exposed is usually Cerakoted before I assemble them, so I don’t have to scrub rust off those like we did in the Army.

I even prefer to have my fasteners Cerakoted, to include those for scope rings.

I have found that the NightForce ring fasteners have not corroded on me, and I don’t think any of my LaRue fasteners have either.

I’m a fair and bad weather shooter, so I usually schedule courses in the dead middle of winter in the mountains here in Utah.







I have found that if you live in the Southern US, PNW, and New England, you have to be more concerned about corrosion due to the precipitation.

The next harsher climates are where we experience extreme cold with any moisture.

Hot/dry climates are easy on guns, except for dust and sand getting in the actions.

One of the most overlooked set of components on modern rifles are the little steel fasteners though, especially with modern handguards.

I have seen those turn orange overnight on high-end guns, so I recommend Cerakoting the heads of those fasteners when you drop them off with a coater.

The method I used was poking holes in pie tins, then inserting the fasteners in the holes before spraying and then baking them.

Keep Bolt Carriers wet with thick lube, whether you use motor oil, CLP, or Slip2000. The thinner oils are fine on other rifle designs, but not the Stoner Internal Expansion AR-15 and AR-10. The thin oils cook-off quickly due to gas system heat. Thick oils stay and continue to lubricate. If you ever compare CLP to RemOil for example, you can see a big difference in thickness.

[Klem]

TB5,

I don't worry about copper anymore and follow the school of thought that it is actually good for barrels. It fills all the micro-pores which helps with ongoing accuracy. The F Class crowd I shoot with don't remove copper either, except the 'Old and bolds', who scrub the hell out of their barrels and are all deaf from not wearing ear protection when they were younger.

I used to use Sweets solvent which included the warning to remove it after 15min or it keeps dissolving everything it touches - which is true. I switched to BoreTec without the ammonia, but finally threw it all in the bin. It just was not helping anything. Every time you clean copper it shifts zero, and then you have to start the cycle of filling the pores and settling the zero again.

I only clean carbon now, but only after a big shooting session or when the groups open up, or if the gun has been out and about. I am conscious that shooting suppressed gets everything filthier quicker, and in semi autos their actions need to be be cleaned regardless. Remove the suppressor at the first opportunity or all that soot will absorb moisture and turn into corrosive salts, attacking the suppressor and anything attached. When in the bush I work the action every now and then, even just slightly if there's a round up the spout to make sure it's all moving. Bore snakes work too, but I tend to use them in the field, or prior to shooting, using rods for normal cleaning. Storing dirty guns is not an issue in an armory or safe if the environment is not too humid, or salty (near the ocean). If you leave the barrel dirty Zerust VCI emitting plastic barrel strips help.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]19344[/ATTACH]

For bolt guns, after shooting the barrels are left untouched, stored with a piece of anti-corrosion cord down the barrel. For semi-autos the working parts always get cleaned, and typically the barrel as well due to likely high volume shooting, and being suppressed.

For new barrels I just shoot them. Advice is mixed on this and until there is consensus I am happy to avoid the tedium of seasoning barrels according to a one-size-fits-all dogma. I've never seen any improved longevity of barrels, or accuracy by shooting and cleaning every five shots at the start. If you buy quality barrels and change them as often as we do, you won't notice anything anyway.

[TedBrewer5]

Thanks for all the replys. I am about 500 rounds in now. First 250 wee Hornady American gunner for break in and brass accumulation. Before starting load development I did a deep clean that included copper(shooters choice)I did run a few hornady blacks rounds through before reloads. All told I had 45 rounds fired when I settled on the 28 gr 8208 load. I have also worked up a 90 gr TNT load(.75”) and a 129 gr ABLR load(1.25”). Butches bore shine until Clean last time around as well as moving parts got me set for hunting season. Did one session to sight in a new scope and only cleaned up the BCG. After seasons end I will do a more thorough clean but probably not go as hard on the copper based on y’all’s feedback

[Zeneffect]

If you don't have a borescope already, don't get one and stay happy. If you get one you will change the way you clean, waste money on new cleaners, get stupid amounts of patches, jags, brushes to get the right combination of sh!t so it "looks as good on tv"

That being said, patch out + accelerator + nylon brush + 4 hour soak gets me 98% of the way there. A follow up with c4 carbon cleaner does the rest. I'm one of those "must be spotless" guys and inspect with a borescope and clean after every session (I have my reasons)

[BlogSarge]

Pistol bores are cleaned with a few patches dampened with Super Quick Clean Guns. The actions are cleaned thoroughly with the same stuff.

Rifle bores are cleaned after shooting with a few passes of a bore snake dampened with Super Quick Clean Guns. The actions are cleaned thoroughly with SQCG.

When cleaning the bores, it is as much to protect from rust than anything.

I used to be obsessive about cleaning all the copper out. I don’t worry about it now and shoot better groups than I ever have before.Not sure if there is a causal relationship or not.

https://www.superquickcleanguns.com/

[DeNinny]

Y'all just opened my eyes on not bothering with copper remover. I might have to experiment with stopping it. When I eventually run out of my Hoppes, Montana Xtreme, and BoreTech, I'll start.

I'm of the philosophy of keeping things consistent, so I thoroughly clean after every time I go shooting. Copper removal included. The thought being that my gun is going to be in a known (clean) condition when I next shoot it. I use Hoppes #9 bore cleaner on the barrel, and for everything else I use Breakthrough military grade solvent or Hoppes carbon remover, followed by Radcolube CLP.

On lube, I only ever use Lucas Red-n-Tacky grease. Love it. No disrespect to team oil, but I'm on team grease all the way.

The only oil I use is on a clean barrel. Run one patch saturated with it and follow that with a dry patch.

[Harpoon1]

Remember seeing/reading where a couple of the BCM factory shooters never cleaned their guns! (Edited: Unsuppressed!) Other than pulling a dry bore snake through it and a few drops of oil on the BCG before every session. One had 14,000 rounds through it and still going strong. That’s the day I stopped worrying about cleaning AR’s. To be fair, these are NOT competition guns, just range, training and self defense. Having said that, if you’re gonna run them dirty, you gotta keep them wet. So BCG gets a splash of oil before each session. Have a BCM Recce that has over 7,000 since it was last cleaned and I have not noticed any changes in group size or have any idea what the bore looks like!

For bolt guns, I use mechanical abrasives liberally and do what Bryan Litz does/recommends. Every 100 rounds, it gets the full treatment of JB Bore paste or Iosso on a tight patch. 30 strokes, down and back is one! Brake cleaner to flush the bore, then dry patches until clean. Then rinse and repeat the JB’s, brake cleaner, dry patches. I also use bronze brushes all the time and scrub vigorously to remove stubborn carbon deposits.

Cleaning recommendations starts @ 41:50. https://youtu.be/_6TAMM-fz-c

The notion that a softer metal, specifically a bronze brush, can somehow scratch or damage a harder metal, specifically a nitrided or chrome lined barrel, is, as best I can tell without any merit! YMMV! https://youtu.be/shqUtDdX4QM

I have no idea why one barrel shoots, while another won’t? Have a Savage 12 LRP 6.5 CM that still shoots 1/2 MOA with factory Hornady 140 HPBT American Gunner and the barrel looks like hell, a NYC sewer pipe! It has pitting from rust damage through out, even the crown is damaged from pitting. Yet it still continues to perform like new, with now somewhere around 1500 rounds through it. OTOH, have a FN AR15 20” A4 that has the most perfect, pristine, beautiful rifling, chrome bore, I’ve ever scoped, and it’s barely a 5 MOA gun on a good day with premium ammo! Go figure!

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19351[/ATTACH]

Looks like I’ve been shooting Graham Crackers!

[TedBrewer5]

As usual y’all offer so much information based on you experiences. Seems like most. But not all. Interesting on your takes on BCG lubing. I lightly grease visible wear points and use CLP on the rest. Certainly not a “run it wet” mentality though

[Harpoon1]

As usual y’all offer so much information based on you experiences. Seems like most. But not all. Interesting on your takes on BCG lubing. I lightly grease visible wear points and use CLP on the rest. Certainly not a “run it wet” mentality though

Just to clear things up a little. When I do clean semi autos, rifles or pistols, I use grease for the primary lubricant. And in liberal amounts on the AR BCG. The “run it wet” with oil is used to extend the time between cleaning. I am also a big fan of Lucas “Red-N-Tacky #2” grease, and then just about any oil will work to “run it wet” between cleanings, gun oil, motor oil, “3-n-1”, whatever is available.

[DeNinny]

Just to clear things up a little. When I do clean semi autos, rifles or pistols, I use grease for the primary lubricant. And in liberal amounts on the AR BCG. The “run it wet” with oil is used to extend the time between cleaning. I too am also a big fan of Lucas “Red-N-Tacky #2” grease, and then just about any oil will work to “run it wet” between cleanings, gun oil, motor oil, “3-n-1”, whatever is available.

Great points, Harpoon1. Use oil, "run it wet". Use grease, "run it gooey".

[stonehog]

https://youtu.be/T3jBsxhLejM

One of my favorite accuracy/cleaning discussions between an f-class champ and a benchrest hall-of-famer touches on why/when you need to go full OCD on cleaning. I think the summary is that if you don't want to worry about the barrel impacting shots, keep it as clean as your distance warrants. Carbon impacts the groups, but it may not matter to you. However, if you are shooting benchrest at 200 or f-class at 1000, it matters. The benchrester (Jack Neary) shoots 6PPC, so this is close to our favorite cartridge. Amazing discussion on reading groups, too!

[Klem]

https://youtu.be/T3jBsxhLejM

One of my favorite accuracy/cleaning discussions between an f-class champ and a benchrest hall-of-famer touches on why/when you need to go full OCD on cleaning.

OCD is correct, and after watching the video (on 2X speed) it reminds me of the difference between field rifles and Bench Rest. These guys have a lot of shooting experience, but if you shoot an AR or hunting rifle, often with factory ammunition you will likely never see the improvements Jack Neary is advocating. These guys spend a lot of money on eliminating the variables we have to account for. 8kg guns, on $2K bench rests, with 10 wind spinners between you and the target. Their goals are tightest groups at short range, in a competitive environment, where only one person wins. Our shooting goals are different.

[LR1955]

OCD is correct, and after watching the video (on 2X speed) it reminds me of the difference between field rifles and Bench Rest. These guys have a lot of shooting experience, but if you shoot an AR or hunting rifle, often with factory ammunition you will likely never see the improvements Jack Neary is advocating. These guys spend a lot of money on eliminating the variables we have to account for. 8kg guns, on $2K bench rests, with 10 wind spinners between you and the target. Their goals are tightest groups at short range, in a competitive environment, where only one person wins. Our shooting goals are different.

Yo Klem:

You actually had the courage to open that video up and look at it?

Hearing a discussion between extreme accuracy champions on cleaning a barrel would be nothing short of torturous for the common man.

You must have some sort of mental armor that allows you to watch that sort of thing and not come out in a coma.

I admire anyone who has the discipline and skill to become a champion in any sport. You don't get there without a lot of work, mental toughness, and a streak of pure stubbornness. Their sport demands anal attention to detail in everything if they are to compete at those levels.

More power to them. I am sure we both went through the cleaning with Hoppes #9 Plus, Sweets, J.B., spending a good hour cleaning the barrel. I got deprogramed when I saw guys who were much better shots do the basics and leave it at that.

Anyway -- some day tell us the secret that allows you to look at such technical discussions without going brain dead.

LR-55

[jasper2408]

A couple of years ago I decided to find out the best way to clean a barrel. In my search on the internet I found 100 different ways to clean a barrel and none of them were the same. The only commonality between them was they each proclaimed that their version was the best way to clean a barrel. Long story short, I just kept doing it my way.

[LRRPF52]

Yo Klem:

You actually had the courage to open that video up and look at it?

Hearing a discussion between extreme accuracy champions on cleaning a barrel would be nothing short of torturous for the common man.

You must have some sort of mental armor that allows you to watch that sort of thing and not come out in a coma.

I admire anyone who has the discipline and skill to become a champion in any sport. You don't get there without a lot of work, mental toughness, and a streak of pure stubbornness. Their sport demands anal attention to detail in everything if they are to compete at those levels.

More power to them. I am sure we both went through the cleaning with Hoppes #9 Plus, Sweets, J.B., spending a good hour cleaning the barrel. I got deprogramed when I saw guys who were much better shots do the basics and leave it at that.

Anyway -- some day tell us the secret that allows you to look at such technical discussions without going brain dead.

LR-55

I’m not a Bench Rest shooter, but I got sucked into that conversation and found it very engaging. (I skipped over the cleaning part. It’s broken down into chapters so you can avoid what isn’t interesting.)

[Klem]

Yo Klem:

Anyway -- some day tell us the secret that allows you to look at such technical discussions without going brain dead.

LR-55

55,

LOL - Listening to it on 2x speed while doing other stuff helps. Plus fast-forward through the bromance at the start. Then when they talked about targets my sense of responsibility had ended. I should have watched that instead.